How the Product Manager Role is Changing in 2025 | Jiaona Zhang (CPO Linktree)

Peter Yang
4.2K views • November 24, 2024

My guest today is Jiaona Zhang, CPO of Linktree.

JZ is the Chief Product Officer of Linktree and a guest lecturer at Stanford. We had a great chat about AI’s impact on PM managers and super ICs, the shift towards PM specialists, and whether becoming a creator can help advance your PM career.

(00:00) Find what makes you happy in your PM career
(01:44) AI's impact on PM managers and super ICs
(04:03) How to balance strategy and execution
(08:24) Streamlining PM tasks with AI
(13:28) Creating strategy docs and PRDs that work
(16:50) Your career is your most important product
(22:55) The shift from PM generalists to specialists
(23:58) Exploring JZ's Career Odyssey framework
(25:49) Why you shouldn't just optimize for comp and title
(31:12) Does the creator economy actually work?
(44:19) Can being a creator help advance your product career?

Get the takeaways: https://creatoreconomy.so/p/how-the-product-manager-role-is-changing-jiaona-zhang

Where to find Jiaona:
Linktree: https://linktr.ee/jz
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jiaona/

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0:00 I think so often people are stuck in
0:02 that dayto day that you're not taking
0:03 the time to even think about what makes
0:06 me happy what gives me energy and again
0:08 I think so often people are like I saw
0:10 so and so do this or this seems like the
0:12 right path like of course like this is
0:14 like check check check check but then a
0:16 lot of PMS by the way get really burnt
0:17 out you're 10 years in and you're like I
0:20 don't I think I might just want to take
0:22 some pottery cloth and like I want to
0:23 just check out of this and what I teach
0:25 is how do you understand yourself the
0:27 same way that you would understand a
0:28 user of your product how do you define
0:31 success and be very agile about it I
0:33 believe that if you were doing things
0:34 that sap away at your energy you were
0:36 never going to be able to be the best
0:38 version that you can be welcome everyone
0:41 my guest today is Jay-Z Chief product
0:43 officer at link tree prior to link tree
0:45 JayZ lit product works at web flow
0:48 Airbnb we work drop bloxs pocket gems a
0:51 lot of great companies welcome JayZ
0:54 thanks so much for having me Peter so
0:55 you have some really awesome experiences
0:57 being a product leader at different
0:59 companies and the product management
1:01 profession is changing a lot recently
1:03 right there's a lot of there's layoffs
1:04 happening there's people trying to I
1:07 guess collapse the layers of the
1:09 management chain and there's also AI
1:11 what have been your observations on how
1:13 product management role is evolving yeah
1:16 great question so actually just this
1:18 morning I was reading the news and of
1:19 course you're reading about Amazon and
1:22 how they're thinking about removing a
1:24 ton of Managers from kind of their
1:27 organization and I think that's probably
1:29 the most striking piece that I've seen
1:31 outside of the macroeconomic environment
1:34 and and just layoffs in general I think
1:36 this idea of how many managers and
1:38 what's kind of the ratio of the orgs
1:41 that you need these days is changing
1:43 pretty rapidly so I think there's a
1:45 almost a compression on the bottom
1:47 meaning these are things that are
1:50 potentially low-leverage tedious manual
1:52 tasks those pieces of work those bodies
1:54 of work are falling away because you
1:56 have tools now you do have ai to take
1:58 place of those things
2:00 and then there's also this idea of that
2:01 management layer okay how many people do
2:04 you really need in that middle layer and
2:06 I think that is probably less talked
2:08 about as we talk about AI because it's
2:10 more obvious that the lower leverage
2:12 work is going away but it's interesting
2:14 because it's like when the lower
2:15 leverage work is going away each person
2:17 is able to do so much more and when each
2:20 person is doing so much more do you
2:22 really need a layer of people kind of in
2:25 the middle managing and by the way that
2:27 job isn't that satisfying for a lot of
2:29 people anyway a lot of times you talk to
2:31 Middle talk to managers and they're like
2:33 I'm stuck in the middle I've get all
2:35 these things from my manager and then I
2:36 have to like translate it down to my
2:38 team and it's actually not that
2:41 stimulating and so I think there's
2:42 actually a very positive shift yes jobs
2:44 are going away and that is not great but
2:47 if you can think about where's the puck
2:49 going and how do I skate to that how do
2:52 I use the tools to take time off of my
2:57 day so that the low leverage work is
2:58 actually being done and and then how do
3:00 I actually not need that layer in
3:02 between how do I go and flex into that
3:05 layer and if that layer is really about
3:06 getting context how do I go get that
3:09 context and then with that context do
3:11 more with the tools below yeah that's a
3:13 very good point because that actually is
3:15 a pretty radical shift because even as a
3:17 PM myself for a long time my goal was to
3:19 just become a manager because that was
3:20 the only way to actually grow your
3:22 career you got to become a manager you
3:24 got the other PMs and it was also really
3:26 hard right because it was a LW of
3:28 numbers you're like oh no there are only
3:30 so many PMS in a given organization and
3:32 if there are only so many PMS like how
3:34 many managers do you need so it became
3:35 this law of numbers and actually
3:36 probably led to org bloat yes it
3:39 definitely left to or bloat because
3:40 everyone's talking about growing head
3:41 count and they had to fire people couple
3:43 years after and but I'm really glad to
3:46 see more and more organizations like
3:48 even at ROBLOX we now have a IC PM
3:51 career track that goes all the way up to
3:53 theoretically goes all to
3:55 VP see how happens but but like where's
3:58 the profile of a super I or like a super
4:01 IPM your eyes yes so I think the the
4:04 part about management I want to just go
4:05 back to it because there's a very
4:07 valuable piece to it which is the fact
4:08 that you are coaching someone else and
4:10 that you're creating leverage I think
4:12 the whole thing today is how do you
4:14 actually get that leverage and what's
4:16 the most efficient way to coach so I do
4:18 think that a big characteristic is the
4:20 ability to go and Coach a bunch of
4:22 people or again create leverage for
4:24 yourself through tools but then also be
4:25 able to get into the weats and I think
4:27 that's a a lot of what I think people
4:30 are kind of and again just because it's
4:32 in the Lexicon right so for example
4:34 founder mode the whole point is really
4:36 like how do you know the details how do
4:37 you get into the weed that's really all
4:39 all that it is or at least the parts
4:40 that I really think are are relevant and
4:42 so in that world if you the
4:45 characteristic that I think is really
4:46 important is how do you enable people to
4:48 be able to fly at multiple altitudes and
4:50 go between altitudes quickly so you're
4:52 flying at the 30,000 foot view where
4:54 you're really clear and understand the
4:56 strategy you're able to go down a layer
4:58 deeper and you're able to actually
5:00 understand okay well what's this team
5:01 doing and then you're able to go down a
5:02 level deeper and be like well if I
5:04 really had to look at the pixels if I
5:06 really had to look at the tickets like I
5:08 can do that and I'm not afraid to do
5:10 that or I don't want to do that and so I
5:12 think that's a big characteristic of
5:13 this role of being able to fly across
5:16 those altitudes really easily I think
5:18 before it was hard I think sometimes
5:20 you're like well it takes me so much
5:21 time to get to the the three-foot view
5:24 of the tickets and the bugs because it
5:25 just like I have to read through all
5:27 these things and again if that becomes
5:29 so much iier because you have tools that
5:30 synthesize that for you if you are able
5:32 to kind of go in play with something
5:34 quickly even just the idea of like build
5:36 environments right it was really hard to
5:38 go like get a build in the past and with
5:40 all the technological advances you're
5:42 like wait I can actually like spin up
5:44 the server I can go get a build really
5:45 easily I can do the thing where I can
5:47 actually get into the details I think
5:48 it's all about giving people the ability
5:50 to fly at all the different altitudes
5:52 and that is like a very much an art
5:54 right there's like no framework or like
5:56 steps for you to follow to to figure out
5:58 like when you should be in the we and
5:59 where you should be at the high level
6:01 like I'm I'm curious if you have any
6:02 tactics yourself or like how do you
6:04 balance this yourself as a chief product
6:05 officer it is definitely hard balance
6:07 but the biggest tip I give people is
6:09 most of the time just given human nature
6:12 you tend to gravitate towards one or the
6:14 other is just based on your personality
6:16 if you really like going into the
6:18 details if you're very detail oriented
6:19 or maybe you actually don't like going
6:21 to the details so understanding who you
6:23 are first and being like this is what is
6:25 natural to me and then the next step is
6:27 okay if I'm always in the details but
6:30 not taking the time to kind of step back
6:32 and think about the strategy then my tip
6:34 would be okay first of all acknowledge
6:36 that spend the time to do that and then
6:38 actually force yourself to create an
6:39 artifact I'm a big fan of artifacts
6:42 because it actually gives you an ability
6:43 to say I've done the thing a lot of
6:45 times F will ask me what are the core
6:47 competencies how do I know I'm doing
6:49 well and I'm like hey the core
6:50 competencies are execution and
6:52 communication but instead of just
6:53 telling them that and being like good
6:55 luck I say hey for a strategy do you
6:57 have a strategy document do you have an
6:59 article fact around that for execution
7:01 can you actually point to all the things
7:03 you shipped in the past X period of time
7:05 and quantify that for communication
7:07 what's the last weekly update you sent
7:09 out and so I I love pointing to
7:11 artifacts and so using artifacts you can
7:13 actually evaluate yourself you can be
7:15 like hey when was the last time I looked
7:17 at wrote or circulated a strategy
7:20 document about either something broad is
7:23 like a whole product area or the company
7:25 level if you're really senior or even if
7:28 you're junior your product area area
7:29 like Who Who Are You targeting what does
7:32 success look like what are you investing
7:33 what are you not investing in that
7:35 artifact is really useful and a great
7:38 way to say hey this is pulling myself
7:40 out of the weeds and then vice versa
7:42 right if you're flying all the way up
7:43 here that's a very easy litmus test you
7:45 can say Well when was the last time I
7:46 played with a product and dog
7:58 foodedible yeah I think that's really
8:00 good advice I I tend to enjoy flying
8:02 close to ground like testing the product
8:04 before it launches and talking to users
8:06 but sometimes I remind myself because
8:07 there's always some urgent thing to do
8:09 on the ground I to remind myself to
8:11 actually take a step back and like hey
8:13 when was the last time I updated my
8:14 strategy document like it's been like
8:16 six months maybe it's not as urgent but
8:17 it's really important to know where
8:19 we're going making time for the
8:20 important work not just the Urgent work
8:22 yeah that's pretty good advice so
8:24 another thing that PM struggle with
8:25 obviously is like we're just stuck in
8:27 beings all dayot lot of us have to do at
8:29 work at night but like I think with the
8:31 AI there's ways to streamline like you
8:33 said a lot of the routine tasks so like
8:36 from your experience what tasks are
8:38 really great for streamline of AI and
8:40 what tasks do you think still require a
8:41 human touch that's a great question but
8:43 I would actually even just remove the AI
8:45 piece out of it for a second because I
8:46 think that today we keep going towards
8:48 Ai and there're just like basic things
8:50 that we can do that don't require
8:52 necessarily those tools I want to start
8:54 with this concept of voice notes which
8:56 is something I hold really dear to my
8:58 heart I'm much faster speaking like
9:01 here's a quick thing I need you to think
9:02 about or do versus sitting there and
9:04 kind of writing it out which by the way
9:05 on the AI front of course there are
9:07 tools to help you write things a lot
9:09 faster right like a first draft has
9:11 never been easier you just stick into
9:12 gbt you go into notion AI like it's
9:14 never been easier but I again just going
9:16 back to basic Primitives voice leaving
9:20 people a note and so at link tree we are
9:23 incredibly distributed we have offices
9:25 in Australia in the US in um the UK and
9:29 and then Global employees everywhere and
9:31 so how do you keep a remote Workforce on
9:34 the same page and how do you communicate
9:36 and yes of course you can write things
9:38 you can write slacks it takes time and
9:40 sometimes people forget and so going
9:42 back to voice notes I do a thing where
9:44 you know whenever I come out of a
9:45 meeting I think to myself well what's
9:47 the tldr what was the decision that was
9:49 made and I also have that as just
9:52 meeting hygiene like why are we having
9:54 this meeting you always need to come in
9:56 with a very clear agenda and
9:57 specifically like what do you need to
9:59 have live discussed versus that could be
10:01 done asynchronously through a loom or
10:04 through some other tool and then going
10:05 back to voice notes use voice notes
10:08 something as simple as speech right to
10:10 leave something for someone to say hey
10:13 this was a decision that happened today
10:15 or this is the thing I need you to run
10:17 and take the ball forward on and again
10:18 so important in a world where some
10:20 people are going to sleep and other
10:21 people are waking up to start their day
10:23 so that context sharing is critical so
10:26 even as something as simple as just
10:27 leaving a voice note of what happened
10:30 and like what I need you to do next and
10:32 then I think again with AI and all just
10:35 technology like I think again we keep
10:36 talking about AI but technology in the
10:39 past it was like sending emails and
10:42 picking up the phone and today it's
10:44 leaving a voice note on a slack and then
10:46 having slack Auto transcript that so
10:49 that if someone doesn't want to listen
10:50 to something because they're more visual
10:52 they can read it really quickly right
10:53 and then there will be more tools where
10:55 you're summarizing what happened um but
10:57 I am a person I I believe in very light
11:00 process or or process where needed and
11:02 so I actually don't like a world where
11:04 it's like I go through and I'm like AI
11:05 this AI that it's like how do you find
11:07 those little efficiencies and then how
11:09 do you find some bigger tools where you
11:10 say it's it's going to really push us
11:12 the right direction yeah I totally agree
11:14 with that I think like whenever you have
11:15 these like little annoying things that
11:17 you do like trying to summarize notes
11:18 after a meeting they have to do like
11:20 multiple times in a day or like a lot
11:22 then they just start thinking about okay
11:24 how can I make this easier for The Voice
11:26 nose piece I already do that at work but
11:28 like for my news letter writing like
11:30 sometimes I would drop my kid off at
11:31 school and I drive to work and then and
11:34 then I would like rant about something
11:36 to this app called super whisper like
11:38 this yeah app and then it will just
11:40 record my rant and then I I will put
11:42 that rant I send myself an email with
11:44 that rant and then like put into cloud
11:46 and as Cloud clean up and like that is
11:48 kind of like the first draft of of my
11:50 post I love that I really love that yeah
11:53 because if the another thing is like
11:55 when you're speaking you kind of just
11:57 kind of tend to get to the point right
11:58 you kind of at your most natural so you
12:00 don't like use a bunch of like
12:01 bureaucratic or flowery language you
12:03 just get to the point so in some ways
12:04 it's actually more from the heart than
12:06 like writing yeah I love that and and
12:08 you don't have that blank page writer
12:11 block thing you're literally just
12:12 talking what's top of mine and then with
12:14 the tools around editing yeah GPT again
12:16 all the different models out there
12:18 they're so good for giving you a first
12:21 draft when you put in the right
12:22 parameters and they're so good in terms
12:24 of tweaking but they never can get to
12:26 the final I find they never get the
12:28 final version right like there's still
12:30 that human element at the very end being
12:31 like this is how I want to sound you can
12:34 do a lot of things by the way so for
12:35 example we've even trained a GPT
12:37 instance with link tre's tone of voice
12:39 and brand guidance right so like when we
12:41 write anything instead of it being like
12:43 okay well everyone let's wait for the
12:44 one copywriter who's really bottlenecked
12:46 like everyone has the ability to
12:48 contribute copy so I think there are
12:49 definitely ways where the tools really
12:51 do make a difference but it's like
12:53 finding the right touch point so I loved
12:55 your example of here's where voice is
12:56 great here's where I don't want to do a
12:58 bunch of tedious work and the tools do
13:00 it for me and then here's like the final
13:02 human touch at the end yeah like another
13:04 example I like to and you probably have
13:06 deal problem because you're probably
13:07 context searching all all the time like
13:09 I really dislike it when someone text me
13:11 in like a slack threat that's like 50 me
13:12 messages deep and be like hey Peter what
13:14 do you think and usually what's the
13:16 context what even happen yeah like I
13:18 don't want me reading all this stuff so
13:20 I don't know if I should be a m in this
13:21 but like usually I just like put the
13:23 whole threat into Ai and be like okay
13:24 can you summarize what's going on here
13:26 and that saves me like a ton of time
13:28 yeah so what about like just just real
13:30 real quick you talk about like having
13:32 artifacts like strategy artifacts like
13:33 prds I think it's important to have good
13:36 artifacts but I also think like
13:38 especially these big companies like
13:40 people tend to over focus on artifacts
13:42 right they're like I didn't make the
13:44 strategy document perfect before I can
13:46 show it to JZ and they spend like a
13:48 ton of time trying to pop polish it so
13:50 how do you find the right balance here
13:52 or like you know what does your strategy
13:54 look like is like a one pay pager or is
13:56 like a 30 payer yeah yes the company's
13:59 straty document we try to keep it to a
14:01 two-pager I'm very aware that when you
14:03 say one pager the chances of it the
14:04 words fitting onto one page without
14:06 changing all the margin width is very
14:08 low but by the time you're getting past
14:10 two pages you're like you could have
14:12 been much more concise so company level
14:14 we really try to keep it to to tight two
14:17 pages and if there's any overflow it's
14:19 all things like here are the details
14:20 here's the appendix you really want to
14:22 read like all the detailed decision-
14:23 making that went into this or the
14:24 trade-offs that we went through that's
14:26 later but try to keep the core meat what
14:29 you're talking about I usually use a
14:31 rule of thumb of two pages I actually
14:33 have stripped out a lot of process and
14:35 again I think you have to be really
14:37 thoughtful about what's the big biggest
14:39 problem that your organization is going
14:40 through I do think when I first joined
14:42 link tree we had a lot of process where
14:44 it wasn't really clear what the point of
14:45 the process was and so I went actually
14:48 to an extreme and I really believe in
14:49 this idea like going to different ends
14:51 of the spectrum because actually pushes
14:52 behavioral change more effectively than
14:54 kind of being middle of the road and and
14:56 again you see this in design work you're
14:57 like let me show you two extremes it's
14:59 not like I'm going to ship either one
15:01 but it's going to teach me a bunch and
15:02 so going back to process I kind of went
15:04 to more of the extreme where I stripped
15:05 out the process and I looked at what
15:07 fell apart and what I realized is given
15:10 and this is very specific to link tree
15:11 and specific to the way we like to work
15:13 and even to our Founders Alex for
15:15 example our CEO is incredibly visual I'm
15:18 also very Visual and so when you write a
15:20 bunch of documents it's actually not
15:21 that effective because the chances that
15:23 anyone's going to read that document
15:25 internalize all of it and come out of it
15:27 with something like my mental image
15:29 versus anyone else's mental image it's
15:31 going to it's going to deviate and so
15:33 we've actually gone really heavy into
15:35 having visual artifacts so for example
15:38 in you know a fig Jam or in um igma
15:42 actually even taking some of the main
15:44 points and putting them next to the
15:45 designs where at the very top we say
15:48 these are the key problems these are the
15:50 key the things that we're trying to
15:51 solve go straight into the flows low
15:54 Fidelity flows then to High Fidelity
15:56 flows and then using that as the source
15:58 of Truth and we found that actually
16:00 works way better because you could write
16:01 any length of page document and it just
16:04 wouldn't stick yeah yeah no nobody reads
16:07 my prds I have to like put some notes in
16:09 the fake MTH for people to actually know
16:10 what was going on and so yeah in that
16:13 world it's like why write the PRD again
16:15 the thinking of a PD is really important
16:17 but what are ways to to do it in a
16:19 really lightweight way so again we we're
16:21 like no one's going to read that
16:23 document so how do we actually
16:24 incorporate into our scorecard so we
16:26 have a thing where accountability is
16:27 really important transparency see again
16:29 information sharance is really important
16:31 a scorecard is very lightweight it's
16:33 literally here's what success looks like
16:36 are you on track and hear some details
16:38 on the progress the blockers and the
16:39 asks that's good enough and so just
16:41 again just really thinking about what is
16:42 the thing that you need to get across so
16:45 everyone is on the same page and so you
16:47 can move forward yeah that that makes a
16:49 lot of sense so let's talk about a
16:51 little bit about PM careers and more I
16:53 think you given talks about how in fact
16:56 I think you teach a course right about
16:57 how PM should treat their career
16:59 like their most important product and
17:01 like a great product obviously solves a
17:02 user problem hopefully it's
17:04 differentiate in some way maybe can you
17:06 give us the high level on how PMs can
17:07 think about their career the same way
17:09 the first takea away from my course is
17:10 even just taking the time to think about
17:13 your career I think so often people are
17:15 again stuck in that dayto day you're
17:17 doing the Urgent and not the important
17:19 that you're not taking the time to even
17:21 think about what makes me happy what
17:24 gives me energy and I think that the the
17:26 main thing I want to convey is there's
17:27 no one way to do anyone's career I think
17:30 it's about getting the data that you
17:33 need how much can I make in different
17:35 scenarios I think there's so much also
17:37 around like information asymmetry it's
17:39 it's almost like people who have
17:41 information have power and people who
17:42 don't and so again a big part of my
17:44 course is getting that information out
17:46 there so it's accessible to everyone but
17:48 then taking those information those
17:49 pieces of of data and thinking really
17:53 deeply about yourself as a user and so
17:55 if you're building any product you have
17:56 to understand who you're building for
17:58 what do they want what are their deep
18:01 pains what gives them like what gives
18:03 them that that dopamine hit how do you
18:05 think about yourself as a user when
18:08 you're thinking about your career and
18:10 again I think so often people are like
18:11 oh I I saw so and so do this or this
18:13 seems like the right path like of course
18:15 like this is like check check check
18:17 check but then a lot of PMS by the way
18:19 get really burnt out yeah you're 10
18:21 years in and you're like I don't I think
18:23 I might just want to take some pottery
18:25 classes and like I want to just check
18:27 out of this and so that's what I and
18:29 again that's totally fine too like that
18:31 there's nothing wrong with that but I
18:32 don't want people to do that because
18:34 they are burnt out I want people to do
18:36 that because that is ultimately what
18:37 they're very passionate about and so so
18:39 much of what I believe in and one what I
18:43 teach is how do you understand yourself
18:45 the same way that you would understand a
18:47 user of your product how do you define
18:49 success and be very agile about it right
18:52 when you're building a product I will
18:53 pull PMS for this but the number of
18:55 times they like in Phase One definition
18:57 of success was this and in B to the
18:59 definition of success was this and then
19:00 when I learned this new thing the
19:01 definition of success changed to this
19:03 other thing like that is a natural thing
19:04 that happens and so being able to do
19:06 that for yourself for your own career to
19:08 be like what's happening in the industry
19:10 going back to your very first point yes
19:12 if we are giving rise to call it like a
19:14 super IC and there is a up tovp path for
19:17 the IC and that's honestly what you
19:19 enjoy because you enjoy deep work you
19:22 enjoy working cross functionally on very
19:24 complex projects but you don't
19:25 necessarily want to manage anyone and
19:27 write their each cycle reviews
19:30 performance reviews don't do that
19:32 because anything I believe that if you
19:33 are doing things that sap away at your
19:35 energy you are never going to be able to
19:37 be the best version that you can be and
19:39 so that's really the core of it how do
19:41 you understand who you are what
19:43 motivates you also understand what are
19:45 the the basic things that are required
19:46 to be excellent because I think a lot of
19:48 people are like I want to get promoted
19:50 you're like no the first thing you do is
19:51 to be good at what you do and sometimes
19:53 the the overlap of the two is not quite
19:55 there for people and that's okay I'd
19:56 rather have them Discover it sooner is
19:59 much later right like if you're like hey
20:01 actually to be a really great PM you
20:02 have to operate in ambiguity and and
20:05 love it and Thrive and you have to just
20:07 like proactiveness grit tenacity that's
20:10 so important but if you're like I
20:11 actually really do enjoy structure to
20:13 some degree I enjoy maker time you get
20:16 so little maker time as a PM like you
20:18 said this earlier you're like in
20:18 meetings all day at the end of the day
20:20 you're finally in front of your computer
20:21 like doing deep work if that's not what
20:23 you enjoy if you want your days to be
20:25 doing maker time like maybe there's
20:27 something else that is better for you
20:28 and that you're going to thrive at more
20:30 yeah I I love that I think basically the
20:32 message is like there are many different
20:33 paths to success as a PM or even maybe
20:36 you don't want to be a PM right and like
20:38 I think early in my career it was very
20:40 like oh like if I don't make a if I
20:43 don't make like to CPO like JayZ that
20:45 that failed in my career but yeah I I
20:46 think I've become more honest with
20:47 myself like actually I do enjoy just
20:49 like sitting in a room with engineer
20:50 designers trying to figure out how to
20:52 build a product and and maybe there
20:54 actually is a viable whole career path
20:57 just doing that yeah yes totally I mean
20:59 that's what Founders do at the end of
21:00 the day right they kind of try to build
21:02 a product that way yeah and then
21:04 actually a lot of Founders actually
21:05 don't enjoy their jobs when it's more
21:08 about company scaling and or scaling as
21:10 opposed to building and so then for them
21:12 even finding like the right fit in the
21:13 company so that they can do what gives
21:15 them energy because ultimately that's
21:16 going to make the company more
21:17 successful and and how about like
21:19 because there's been like a lot of
21:21 downsizing extent do you think it's
21:23 still okay to be a PM generalist or do
21:24 you think folks should specialize in a
21:26 certain area or skill yeah a really
21:29 great question it's interesting because
21:31 I would say if you look at my career I
21:33 am very much a journalist I've worked on
21:35 everything from gaming to productivity
21:38 to marketplaces and then even within
21:40 some of the places I worked at I've
21:42 worked on deep infrastructure and
21:43 developer apis all the way to very
21:46 consumer-based products it's always
21:47 interesting everyone's like are you
21:49 consumer are you Enterprise I was like
21:51 I've done it all and I actually think
21:53 the beauty is where you find patterns
21:56 from one to apply to the other because
21:57 there are lots of ways where you're like
21:59 hey these are the things that are
22:01 happening consumer these are the trends
22:02 that make sense and when you apply that
22:04 to a B2B business that's really
22:05 interesting there are also times where
22:07 you're like hey the business model of
22:09 this consumer business doesn't quite
22:11 make sense and if you think about the
22:12 things that happen in B2B much more
22:14 reliable called like SAS revenue streams
22:16 like that actually can make this like
22:18 consumer business really viable so and I
22:20 think it's again deeply personal it's
22:22 just what happened in my career journey
22:24 and also just as a person I really enjoy
22:27 kind of working across things I'm a
22:30 person that likes to go Broad and
22:33 understand a bunch of different things
22:34 and apply them to each other as opposed
22:36 to necessarily go super deep in in one
22:38 thing and I learned that about myself
22:39 when I was like hey if I have a career
22:41 that's the same thing for the next 40
22:43 years and the same subject area I
22:46 personally would be really bored and so
22:47 it's deeply personal again going back to
22:49 this theme of like there's no right way
22:51 to do anyone's career it's very personal
22:53 to what gives you energy but what I do
22:56 think as a general trend is especially
22:58 if you're trying to move into product I
23:01 think that this idea of a generalist
23:04 it's harder and harder these days
23:06 because there are so many people who are
23:07 potentially interested in the role and
23:10 in many ways the number of roles are I
23:13 don't I don't know dwindling but I
23:14 definitely think evolving and so if you
23:17 have that deep expertise if you have
23:19 that deep payments expertise if you do
23:21 have that ml expertise right like you're
23:23 able to go in and add impact and I do
23:26 see hiring managers today feeling like
23:29 here are the very specific areas that I
23:31 don't have expertise in I'm going to go
23:33 out and look for that and even in my
23:35 hiring experience recently we were doing
23:38 a really big Commerce play I'm going out
23:40 and looking for people with deep
23:42 Commerce experience I'm not necessarily
23:44 looking for generalists as much yeah
23:46 that makes sense yeah and expertise can
23:47 be like by vertical or maybe like by by
23:50 scale like like MML or like maybe even
23:52 by type of product right like are you
23:53 good at growing skill products or are
23:54 you better at building zero to one to a
23:57 certain extent yeah and and just to wrap
23:58 this up like you have a really great
24:00 career I think I found this on online
24:02 you have this career Odyssey framework I
24:04 think it's like a fake jam and we'll
24:05 link to it in description but it's
24:07 really great about thinking about your
24:09 career and like kind of having a role
24:10 map for your career and I think the part
24:12 I really love about it is like these
24:14 like provocative questions that you kind
24:16 of ask yourself like like do you
24:18 remember some of them like can you share
24:19 some of them to kind of help you think
24:20 bigger than just like what the next
24:21 thing is yes let me give you let me give
24:24 everyone a little bit of context on what
24:25 this is so for anyone who's heard of
24:27 designing your life this is something
24:29 that really inspired me I was like okay
24:31 wow if I apply a designer's mindset I I
24:34 personally love design to my life and
24:37 the way I want to like who like what I
24:39 want to do what gives me energy that
24:40 will make me so much more intentional
24:42 about what it is I choose to do and what
24:43 I don't choose to do and when I did that
24:46 I applied a few different principles to
24:48 what is now the career Odyssey framework
24:50 which is at the end of the day if you're
24:52 doing any design Sprint right you you
24:53 push yourself to think about the Blue
24:55 Sky version if you didn't have as many
24:57 constraints as you had today what would
24:59 that look like and then if you were to
25:01 have constraints great like how do you
25:02 work within those constraints but
25:04 applying that to I think your life and
25:07 your career is very interesting because
25:09 I think that a lot of times when people
25:10 are told actually give me your blue sky
25:12 version of what your life could look
25:15 like if you could really dream what
25:16 would you be doing with your time what
25:18 would your finances look like what would
25:20 all these things look like that it's
25:22 really freeing because a lot of times
25:24 when you do the Blue Sky version you're
25:25 actually like whoa wait a second if I
25:28 could step away from the current path
25:30 that I'm on would I even want to be on
25:33 this path so I think that is one of the
25:35 reasons why in the career Arsy I asked
25:37 people to really do that that blue sky
25:40 version and then there are a few areas I
25:42 think this is maybe what you're
25:43 referencing to which it's like very
25:44 pointed questions and this is very
25:46 specific to just a career framework I I
25:49 ask people to really evaluate for
25:51 themselves like how much do they
25:54 actually need financially cuz I think a
25:56 lot of times when we think about a
25:57 career the reality of it is is tied to
25:59 your earnings and so this idea of like
26:01 how much do you really need versus
26:02 always just thinking like more more how
26:04 much does a title matter to you and like
26:06 what is the value of a title and this in
26:07 my course I actually break down a lot
26:09 more because at the end of the day a
26:10 title is just a title you could go
26:13 tomorrow and be the CPO of a five person
26:15 company you can found a company and you
26:17 can be the CEO like you can do you can
26:19 do all those things it's really about
26:20 what actually motivates you if you're
26:22 like I'm motivated by thinking about
26:24 where the future could go and stitching
26:27 together a lot of functions and getting
26:28 there like that is one path right like
26:30 you're like I'm really motivated by
26:32 building great things and getting into
26:34 the weeds of building those great things
26:35 like that's a slightly different path
26:36 and so it's really understanding kind of
26:38 again what motivates you and so I ask
26:40 people to kind of reflect on those
26:41 questions and then when they're able to
26:43 do both their Blue Sky version a version
26:45 of their life of like if I made no
26:47 changes what would that roughly look
26:48 like because again people don't play
26:50 that out and then thinking about some of
26:51 these prooptic questions you end up with
26:53 just this really interesting thought
26:55 exercise and to take you two hours like
26:58 less that just gives you so much more
27:00 clarity in terms of what is great for
27:01 you and what's meaningful for you yeah
27:03 maybe I need to take a course but I
27:05 think that's a really good point because
27:06 you don't really reflect when when
27:07 you're in the game you don't really
27:09 reflect on if you should be playing this
27:11 game in the first place right and like
27:13 if you take a step back then maybe
27:15 you're like oh maybe like if I win this
27:16 game I'm actually going to lose because
27:18 I don't actually want to play this game
27:19 but what about like and you have like in
27:20 that framework you have plans to make
27:22 like a 5year plan stuff like that but
27:24 even with building a product we know how
27:26 new information comes up all the time
27:27 and like plans change right so so like
27:30 so how useful is that fiveyear plan of
27:32 like the next year you find out
27:33 something new about yourself or like I I
27:34 could just keep it updated just like a
27:36 product or yeah I don't because again
27:40 even this idea of this even going back
27:42 to like real product work road maps
27:45 right like I I like road maps to be
27:46 living breathing things and again if
27:47 you're in an Enterprise business you
27:49 have a client facing road map but I
27:51 think so many times people confuse all
27:52 these things you're like they're all one
27:54 and the same and everything has to be
27:55 updated and you're like no actually what
27:57 you really want especially Enterprise is
27:58 to be like these are things I'm
28:00 guaranteeing is going to happen you
28:02 don't want a world where your sales team
28:03 is like where is this thing so so I
28:05 think it's so interesting CU I think we
28:06 all always have this human nature is to
28:09 be one where you're thinking I need to
28:11 plan this whole thing out but with every
28:13 single plan and this is so ironic
28:15 because we're about to for most
28:16 companies it's annual planning time the
28:18 number of times you do a plan and you
28:19 spend a lot of time on your plan and you
28:21 throw out your plan because you have new
28:23 information q1 is really high but the
28:25 act of planning is what's important to
28:27 me so it's never about the actual plan
28:29 in itself it's about the act of planning
28:32 and the principles and the strategy and
28:35 the decisions that come out of that
28:36 active planning so for example if you do
28:40 again I'll talk about link Tre we're in
28:42 a very Dynamic space in the Creator
28:45 space in a space where it's part
28:46 consumer part SAS it's incredibly
28:49 Dynamic new technolog is coming out
28:50 every day creators are are very Scrappy
28:52 they're finding you know this well
28:54 they're finding you know new ways to do
28:55 things all the time and so there's no
28:57 world that I could possibly come up with
28:59 a 5-year plan a three-year plan or even
29:01 a one-year plan but what I can come up
29:03 with is a very clear strategy where I
29:05 can articulate our principles you know
29:07 our principles are we will always put
29:09 creators first right like we are
29:11 Switzerland as link tree we're here to
29:13 help a Creator to help an SMB and that
29:16 means that like that is our positioning
29:18 and that's how we think about the
29:20 product decisions we make we will think
29:22 about ways where creators are feeling
29:24 like they're getting squeezed and how do
29:25 we actually help them we're going to
29:27 find ways where creators are sinking a
29:29 lot of time and instead of each one
29:32 every single Creator out there in the
29:33 world figuring out a new workflow we
29:35 will be the ones who will help you
29:36 deliver like understand the tools and
29:38 the workflows that make your life easier
29:40 so that is important in terms of our
29:42 strategy in terms of quote unquote
29:43 planning those things don't change and
29:46 those things by the way guide our
29:48 decisionmaking and what we choose to
29:49 invest in and also when something new
29:52 occurs something disruptive happens it
29:55 it reminds us like this is our stance
29:57 we'll always be creative first right
29:58 like in a world of AI where people are
30:00 NE not necessarily always owning their
30:02 likeness what we will always do is
30:05 enable people to be able to have
30:06 ownership on what it is they create and
30:08 so it's just it's that that I push a lot
30:10 on for my teams and specifically for
30:12 planning and again just pulling that all
30:14 the way back to personal career planning
30:16 it's those principles right like if you
30:18 understand what it is that gives you
30:19 energy again no one knows what's going
30:21 to happen you can't necessarily plan out
30:23 three years but you can always tell
30:25 yourself what I really enjoy is is craft
30:29 or what I really enjoy is being able to
30:32 work really cross functionally and those
30:34 principles don't change or if they do
30:36 like something has happened and like you
30:37 should examine those but there's no
30:39 point in having necessarily a plan to
30:41 the tea as much as understanding those
30:42 principles about yourself yeah I totally
30:44 agree like just for my personal
30:46 experience like in my product or I think
30:49 the vision the strategy the role map
30:51 those are all important artifacts but I
30:52 think really underrated artifact is like
30:54 how you want to operate as a team like
30:56 what are your principles as a team
30:58 because those things like if you want to
30:59 put customers first or like you really
31:01 care about craft those principles
31:03 actually inform everyday decisions
31:05 perhaps even more than like those other
31:07 artifacts yeah so having defin is key
31:11 yeah absolutely so let's talk about
31:13 creators in more detail now so like I'm
31:16 both a PM and a Creator and I think the
31:19 promise I think the reason I love the
31:21 Creator economy is that theoretically
31:24 okay it's supposed to bypass The
31:25 Gatekeepers like you don't need to have
31:27 all these titles and credentials you can
31:29 just find your audience online and make
31:31 a living on online or wherever else you
31:33 want to make a living but I think the
31:35 reality is actually more difficult so I
31:37 I have my own thoughts but like I'm
31:38 curious what have been your observations
31:40 as lri CPO yeah I I do think I have very
31:45 similar views which is why I'm very
31:47 drawn to the space and serving these
31:49 users in the sense that they are some of
31:51 the scrappiest most entrepreneurial
31:54 people on earth right you're like these
31:56 people they will do
31:58 anything and they'll learn whatever new
32:00 tool like they're just Hustlers and I I
32:03 love that spirit I think that I do agree
32:06 it's really interesting I think it
32:07 happens with any industry it's almost
32:08 like something happens There's an
32:11 opportunity and then you get all of the
32:13 people who flock there first or do it
32:15 really well at the beginning and then
32:16 it's harder and harder for other people
32:18 to go like do the thing and I think
32:20 that's happened with creators you're
32:21 like wow like Mr Beast like there're all
32:23 these people who are like you have super
32:24 made it in the Creator space and they do
32:26 serve as these beacons I think for other
32:28 creators but I want to create a world
32:30 where it is possible for everyone like I
32:32 really deeply care about this idea of
32:34 like democratizing something so again
32:36 when I was at web flow I was like
32:37 democratizing the internet like everyone
32:39 should be able to like produce and
32:41 beautiful designs right and then at link
32:43 Tre it's this idea of like really
32:45 democratizing all the tools all the ways
32:48 to to make money and I believe a few
32:50 things one which is very powerful for
32:53 creators for example so the first thing
32:55 I really believe is the future of retail
32:58 is very much in the hands of creators
33:00 you don't sell things anymore through
33:02 Billboards tv ads or even the mall that
33:05 those are very like high operational
33:07 cost things and that's not Al that's not
33:10 where the attention is right like in
33:12 today's world in the attention economy
33:14 that we're in a lot of what act like the
33:17 reason you buy something is because
33:19 you're like I have affinity for this
33:20 person or I really like this thing about
33:23 them or I really admire this thing about
33:25 them and when they say that this thing
33:27 is actually great this product is
33:28 actually great that gives me trust that
33:30 gives me confidence and so I think that
33:32 is where the whole future of retail is
33:34 Shifting which by the way is a ton of
33:36 money if you think about the world in
33:37 terms of dollars like literally selling
33:40 physical Goods is a huge part of how
33:43 money moves and I think that's great for
33:45 creators because if that's true it means
33:47 that creators have a huge kind of
33:50 opportunity ahead of them to really do
33:52 Commerce and what's really interesting
33:53 is this whole art of curation right you
33:56 don't necessarily even have to produce
33:57 uce a physical or digital good you can
34:00 curate the courses that you want to
34:01 recommend you can curate the podcasts
34:03 you like you can curate the products
34:05 that that you you like and that idea of
34:07 that is where retail is Shifting and
34:09 that's an opportunity for creators and
34:11 really this opportunity in curation I
34:13 think is massive so that's really
34:14 exciting got it yeah because I I think
34:17 that would be very interesting because
34:18 another thing that creators struggle
34:19 with is I think they have even more
34:22 ambiguity than PMS like PM you have
34:25 ambiguity and like we're going to build
34:26 next but creators have ambiguity on
34:28 their livelihood right cuz the Alo can
34:30 like take their traffic away or a lot of
34:31 them rely on like brand sponsors and
34:33 that industry is like very Hit or Miss I
34:35 don't know there's any ways to give care
34:36 a more stable income maybe it's through
34:38 this retail thing but yeah I think so I
34:41 think there what I what we want to do at
34:43 link Tre is we want to take the best
34:45 practices that have enabled some of
34:47 these like Titans in the Creator space
34:49 to rise and democratize them and enable
34:52 all creators to have access to them and
34:55 and by the way not just all creators I
34:56 really want to make this point which is
34:58 link Tre is used by so many different
35:00 people and quote unquote verticals so we
35:02 serve a musician the same way we serve
35:05 like a pizza shop owner and there's a
35:07 lot of value that people take from a
35:08 link Tre and and also where we want to
35:10 take the product and I think there's a
35:11 lot of similarities meaning I really
35:14 believe that in today's world you know
35:17 smbs need to be creators to thrive they
35:20 need to know how to Market themselves
35:21 and also every Creator out there is
35:23 really an SMB like they they are a
35:26 business and going back to this idea of
35:27 making money you're not doing like a lot
35:29 of people do it for passion but over
35:31 time they realize they can make money
35:33 and that's where it gets really
35:34 interesting so if every creator has the
35:36 opportunity to become an SMB and be
35:38 their own boss right like that's like
35:40 the true Spirit of Entrepreneurship how
35:42 do we support that to happen how do we
35:45 give smbs the tools to be effective
35:48 creators and how do we give creators the
35:50 tools to be able to really earn and
35:52 monetize and I do think you you look at
35:54 the world going back to this idea of
35:56 like these Titans have done these things
35:57 things they kind of had to run through
35:59 broken glass to do it how do we
36:01 democratize what they've done there are
36:03 a lot of people who they curate products
36:05 and they make money through Affiliates
36:07 there are a lot of people who create
36:09 courses and content and make money
36:11 through that there are a lot of people
36:12 who actually create a community I think
36:14 Community by the way is a very untapped
36:17 future just like value Creator like I
36:21 think we we've been in the world of like
36:22 tools like SAS tooling I think that in
36:24 the future especially when I think
36:26 consumer there's something really around
36:27 like the power of communities and even
36:29 going back to distribution and marketing
36:31 dollars which is a huge portion of any
36:33 company's budget this idea of if I can
36:36 tap into a really activated community
36:38 that is how I get my product really sold
36:41 versus trying to one by one get everyone
36:44 at every eyeball and then get people to
36:46 subconsciously want to buy the thing and
36:47 ultimately make that decision and so all
36:50 of those things even just creating a
36:51 community you see creators using
36:53 substack these days not because it's
36:55 perfectly built for them but it's a
36:57 general tool that allows them to capture
36:59 and retain an audience and communicate
37:01 with that audience and so what are all
37:03 the things that we are seeing in the
37:04 world in terms of how can we help these
37:06 creators make money and tools for them
37:09 to be able to really juice their income
37:12 and grow their business and provide it
37:14 for them and do you have any thoughts on
37:16 because most people see link tree as
37:18 kind of a Linkin bio tool or maybe like
37:21 the home The Hub of a lot of creators or
37:23 Brands but I think it might be
37:25 challenging to serve like individual
37:27 creators and Brands and all these
37:28 different SBS so so I'm I'm just curious
37:31 if what what is your high level approach
37:33 to expanding link tre's product is it
37:35 kind of like being a really great
37:36 horizontal tool for the community thing
37:38 or still working out yeah so the first
37:41 thing about link tree is that it is a
37:44 lot for a lot of people it's where you
37:46 start and it's because at some point you
37:50 need to create that digital presence
37:52 there there actually a lot of our
37:52 creators have told us this it's like
37:54 they almost didn't like the act of
37:56 creating a website or creating a link
37:58 LinkedIn bio a link tree was like I'm
38:00 legitimate I have people coming in
38:02 through Tik Tok and Instagram or or even
38:03 just again going back to the restaurant
38:05 owner I'm legitimate here here's my
38:07 really quick I don't have time to go
38:09 build this in Squarespace or some other
38:11 like really fancy website builder but
38:13 like I can throw a few like my menu my
38:16 delivery options and like that is what I
38:18 want to put out there right so link tree
38:21 has the beauty of Link tree is that it
38:22 is so simple to use it has such broad
38:25 reach and you can use it for so many
38:27 things and and so many verticals what's
38:29 next is okay if we were the starting
38:31 point for so many people how do we help
38:34 them along that Journey so that it's not
38:36 just a link in BIO and they're done and
38:38 I also want to talk about how we want to
38:40 do this because I think this is a call
38:41 out for companies and and people who are
38:44 interested in partnering with us I'm we
38:46 are a very small company and I want to
38:47 keep us really lean so I'm not here to
38:50 go build all the different functionality
38:52 that can exist on other platforms but
38:55 what we can really do well well and the
38:57 best for our users as link tree is if
39:00 you are starting with us you're starting
39:01 your journey here how do we teach you
39:04 help you guide you and nudge you towards
39:07 the other things that you can use so
39:09 we're happy to partner with the best in
39:12 class for courses the best in class for
39:14 Community Creation The Best In Class for
39:17 whatever it is because at the end of the
39:19 day we are user first meaning we want to
39:21 always deliver for our users the
39:23 absolute best tool and I'm not going to
39:26 be here the first I'm not be the person
39:27 to say like that's going to be built by
39:29 link tree it could very much be built by
39:31 something else but we what we do think
39:34 deeply about is how is that person going
39:37 to be able to learn how to do these
39:39 things going back to the democratization
39:41 story and for us to be able to say like
39:44 here's the 101 version and here's how
39:46 you can learn how to do it and get
39:48 almost like your training legs under you
39:50 and then when you get really comfortable
39:51 and believe that this is the thing that
39:53 you want to double down in because I
39:54 think for a lot of people they're still
39:56 exploring they're like I don't know do I
39:58 do a newsletter do I do a podcast like
40:00 do I do a course like what is it that I
40:02 actually want to do we want to be able
40:03 to allow you to like experiment quickly
40:06 with some of these things and see what
40:07 works for you and then over time if you
40:09 need a very fancy robust version of
40:12 something we are more than happy to
40:14 really like take you to that product and
40:17 encourage you to use it so that's really
40:18 our philosophy which is like yes 100% we
40:21 are way more than a linkoln bio and I
40:24 think actually a lot of users are
40:25 surprised by how much we do offer we do
40:28 have mailing list Integrations we do
40:30 have the ability literally we just
40:32 launch the ability to be able to
40:34 automatically respond to when someone
40:36 pings you on Instagram like all these
40:38 tools that save you time we're really
40:40 trying to support our creators and our
40:42 smbs in their journey of marketing
40:45 themselves but again if you want
40:46 something really Niche if you want to
40:48 create this incredibly complex thing
40:51 because you've decided that's for you we
40:52 want to support you in that but
40:54 ultimately this is really important
40:55 where you Market yourself all of these
40:57 products come back to the equivalent of
41:00 a website light which for many people is
41:02 their link tree and so that is why we
41:04 think it we have the positioning to do
41:06 this really well but also the trust of
41:08 our users yeah I think it's a really
41:10 powerful advantage to have like we say
41:13 link B it's really like a home that the
41:15 Creator actually owns and can customize
41:17 to whatever they want because if I if my
41:19 home is on YouTube or Twitter like they
41:20 can just change the algo or like changed
41:22 how high I show stuff anytime right and
41:25 another thing really annoying as a
41:26 Creator like you kind of like you said
41:28 you kind of forc to be present on
41:30 multiple platforms and even as a fan
41:32 it's like really annoying to follow you
41:34 follow Creer on different platforms so
41:37 whatever makes the end to-end Journey
41:38 easier like for example I I know you
41:40 guys bought a recent post scheduling
41:42 toour or something yeah whatever makes
41:44 that easier because I don't want to have
41:46 to like open five different tabs on my
41:47 browser to post the same thing so
41:50 absolutely I want to give a huge plug
41:51 for plan because I honestly I hate
41:54 posting on LinkedIn and I need to do it
41:56 and so this IDE idea of how do you make
41:59 that Ted again the tedious work go away
42:02 five browsers doing it all the time
42:04 putting it into your calendar and be
42:05 like remind yourself like like if I
42:07 can't Auto if I can't schedule a post on
42:08 this platform because not all platforms
42:10 allow that right you're just in this
42:11 logistical hell and plan is just this
42:14 beautiful simple product where you're
42:15 like great I can connect all my
42:17 platforms I can actually plan my month
42:19 at a glance if you're very serious and I
42:22 it will Autos schedule wherever possible
42:23 for me and even beyond that I think the
42:25 beauty of this whole there's so much
42:27 that creators can teach smbs and so much
42:29 tooling that smbs have to really just
42:31 run businesses that are actually really
42:32 relevant for creators so this like
42:34 overlap is what I think is so beautiful
42:36 creators have a lot have learned a lot
42:39 in terms of creating content that's
42:41 engaging and we take that and we
42:44 literally productize it within plan and
42:46 we actually help if you're brand new to
42:48 all of this if you don't know even where
42:50 to even start when it comes to Instagram
42:52 we give you the inspiration we give you
42:54 a hey if you are a hair stylist and
42:57 you're trying to start to create a brand
42:58 that's not just people happening to come
43:00 by and and booking an appointment with
43:02 your salon how do you do that and that
43:04 again that's where marketing is going
43:06 that is how people are getting their
43:07 leads we're not in a world of you walk
43:10 by and it just it's like leads come from
43:11 foot traffic and therefore where you're
43:13 located matters a lot we're in this like
43:15 remote hybrid environment where like
43:17 anyone anywhere can make money and that
43:19 like the digital presence piece of it
43:22 and even knowing like we offer an
43:24 analytics sueet on link Trey where we
43:25 say hey what what's actually even
43:27 happening are people coming to probably
43:30 the most high intent place by the way
43:31 like if someone's really interested in
43:33 you they will click on your link and bio
43:34 but where are they coming from are they
43:35 coming from Tik Tok are they coming from
43:37 Instagram are you actually missing a
43:38 platform completely and you should
43:39 probably go do that like that is I think
43:41 the beauty of being Switzerland because
43:43 we can give you the information that is
43:45 a crossplatform and I just fundamentally
43:47 believe that the world is getting more
43:49 fragmented there are more places to post
43:51 things there more places to yell either
43:54 into the void or into an Engaged
43:55 audience whatever you're able to do and
43:57 ideally we want you all to be yelling to
43:58 an engage audience and so like how do we
44:00 give you the tools to be able to do that
44:02 really effectively and what what is the
44:04 website for plan just so people can
44:05 follow along yeah yeah so very soon if
44:08 you sign up for link tree you'll be able
44:09 to have access to plan actually that is
44:11 rolling out right now but if literally
44:13 today Google plan PL an you'll be able
44:16 to sign up for an account okay a awesome
44:19 okay so let's kind of bring our two
44:21 topics together right like advancing
44:23 your product career and I guess gol B
44:25 you have both but I'd like to kind of
44:26 bring back to this cuz as a Creator
44:28 you're trying to put yourself out out
44:29 there you're trying to be authentically
44:31 you I think as a product leader you you
44:34 kind of also have like a brand in your
44:36 company or like in the in industry but
44:39 that's hopefully like like we discuss
44:40 authentic to what gives you energy so
44:42 like I don't know if I have a question
44:43 on this but like I guess one my point I
44:45 want to make is like a lot of people
44:46 just like blindly apply to a bunch of
44:47 jobs or like blindly put stuff out there
44:49 about all kinds of random things let's
44:51 close on this but I think you already
44:52 got this how do you build a brand both
44:55 at a company and maybe internally that's
44:58 authentically you that actually gives
44:59 you energy that that you don't get
45:00 trapped in a place that you don't
45:01 actually want to be that's kind of a
45:03 large question but yeah it's a great
45:05 question maybe I'll first talk about one
45:07 point which is can you be a Creator and
45:09 can you especially since we talked so
45:11 much about like product careers like
45:12 have that at the same time and I think
45:13 like absolutely you're like a perfect
45:15 example of that and I do think that when
45:17 you build expertise in a certain area
45:20 and you're able to actually talk about
45:22 it and share it with the world you get
45:24 more and more opportunities just to do
45:27 that which I think is really exciting I
45:29 do think there are times where you do
45:31 have to find that line but what I
45:33 usually find for many people is unless
45:36 you're teaching about like something
45:37 completely different you're like here I
45:38 am being a Ceramics instructor and here
45:41 I am am with like a very specific like
45:43 product career and data platform like
45:44 those are it's like pretty hard to find
45:47 a match there in that world you just
45:48 have to time manage and then this goes
45:50 back to Career Odyssey like which one do
45:52 you actually want to do and which one is
45:54 primary which one is secondary like I
45:55 think like people need to figure that
45:56 out but a lot of cases I actually see
45:58 the it being very complimentary meaning
46:00 Peter with what you've done like like
46:02 you were so interesting for companies
46:04 that really want that skill set and want
46:06 that following like sure we can go hire
46:09 someone who doesn't have any kind of
46:11 like reach or we can go hire someone who
46:13 does which is really meaningful and so I
46:15 think that I do think it it is Nuance
46:18 because not as much as we're not telling
46:19 everyone to go be a Creator per se but I
46:22 think this idea like if there are things
46:23 that truly give you energy and it feels
46:25 very symbiotic to kind of what you're
46:27 doing every single day and I I'll go
46:30 back to my personal life I teach because
46:32 I I truly love it but also because it
46:35 makes me a better product leader the
46:37 number of times I've taught every year a
46:39 winter quarter I teach at Stamford and I
46:41 also teach cohorts at refor and I'm
46:43 always reminded when I teach a Stanford
46:45 I'm like I need to start with the
46:47 problem space and there are times where
46:49 even today I'm like oh I jump too far
46:51 ahead or we as a team jumped too far
46:52 ahead because we got too excited about
46:54 the opportunity too excited about the
46:56 technology and it's just such a
46:57 grounding moment to be like wait a
47:00 second step back and like how do we der
47:02 risk this project and actually set it up
47:04 for success and then when I speak up
47:06 reforge a lot of the reasons I do it is
47:08 because again I I fundamentally enjoy
47:10 connecting with students but I also get
47:11 the privilege to speak to your amazing
47:13 guest speakers that we bring in that I
47:15 get to learn from and so I think that
47:17 for me what I found is when you're
47:20 really doing work that you enjoy a lot
47:22 of times it's very interconnected and
47:25 together they create momentum and like
47:27 one accelerates the other I do think
47:30 there are times where people are truly
47:31 feeling torn between the two and this is
47:34 where I would push you to be like what
47:37 actually gives you energy and could you
47:39 out there whoever is doing this out
47:41 there could you do one way better if you
47:43 focus on it if they don't actually feel
47:45 naturally related yeah I think that's a
47:48 really good point and also like the
47:49 point about building flywheels that help
47:50 each other that to help accelate like I
47:53 think is a good point like my example
47:54 would be like doing this podcast talking
47:56 to people like yourself
47:57 like if I randomly pin you on LinkedIn
47:59 be like hey can I pick your brain for 10
48:00 minutes maybe you agree but probably not
48:02 but I think this podcast I've got to
48:04 talk to a lot of really great leaders
48:05 like yourself Yuki other folks that I've
48:08 learned from and kind of reapply to my
48:10 job so I I think that's awesome yeah I
48:13 love that yeah and I love that you're
48:14 just spreading that to everyone right
48:16 you're not like I'm not hoarding the
48:17 knowledge I'm actually you know
48:18 disseminating it which is great yeah we
48:21 gotta extract the insights from J's
48:23 brand share everyone but uh where can
48:25 people find you online or can be able to
48:27 take your course go to my link tree it
48:28 has everything and this is again what I
48:30 think is the beauty of Link tree like
48:32 usually at the end of every podcast you
48:33 hear people like this is where you can
48:35 find me on X and this is where you can
48:36 find me on LinkedIn and this and they
48:38 like run through a bunch of things and
48:39 sometimes the username is taken and so
48:41 it's like impossible to remember you can
48:43 literally find me at link tree it's link
48:44 tree JayZ and it has everything I do it
48:48 has all my rearch courses it has all of
48:50 Peter when you send me the link to the
48:52 podcast I'll stick it on my link tree it
48:53 has all the different things and so
48:55 again just this representation of your
48:56 yourself that you don't have to keep
48:58 updating in a thousand places to get out
49:00 of date but one unified place that's
49:03 really what link tree is so go find me
49:04 on my link tree all right link tree. JZ
49:06 yeah because most people say like oh go
49:08 find me on like here five different
49:09 platforms but yeah Link tree. Link tree
49:11 JZ and at some point there'll be
49:13 actually you know what I'll give you a
49:14 QR code if you want to put that anywhere
49:16 in your substack people can scan that QR
49:18 code awesome well thanks so much this
49:21 was a really insightful conversation and
49:23 I had a lot of fun thank you for having
49:25 me this was really fun too