Ex Aberdeen director of football Steven Gunn gives insight on next Dons manager | In Conversation

Daily Record
1.2K views • February 11, 2026

Former Aberdeen Director of Football Steven Gunn gives an insight into the running of a football club after spending many years with the Dons.

From transfers and cup glory to insight into the potential next manager at Pittodrie, Scott Burns and Anthony Evans bring you this exclusive interview for the Daily Record

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0:00 Hello and welcome to the Daily Records
0:02 in Conversation. My name is Scott Burns
0:05 and today I'm joined by my usual
0:07 sidekick Anthony Evans. Anthony, how are
0:09 you?
0:09 >> I'm very well Scott, how are you?
0:11 >> I'm good, thank you. And today in
0:13 conversation we're joined with a extra
0:16 special guest and former Aberdine
0:19 director of football, Steven Gun.
0:20 Stephen, good to see you. How are you?
0:23 >> Morning guys. Good to see you.
0:25 >> All good at this side.
0:27 >> You're all good at that side. That's
0:28 what I like to hear. That's what I like
0:29 to hear. Stephen, it's been
0:32 you you left Aberdine in uh would have
0:35 it been September. So, what have you
0:38 been up to since then? Can you bring us
0:40 up to speed in the the life of Mr. Gun,
0:43 please?
0:44 >> Well, it's obviously it was a long time
0:47 at Aberdine um and particularly that
0:49 that last few years quite intense. So,
0:52 um I've had some good time with the
0:54 family, um doing the school runs, uh
0:58 getting to family activities that might
1:00 have otherwise been a challenge, um in
1:03 the past. So, I've really enjoyed that.
1:04 But obviously, I've been trying to um
1:07 keep active in terms of uh you know,
1:10 what might come next um for me and I've
1:13 enjoyed some really interesting club
1:16 visits. I was down at Everton um for uh
1:19 for a couple of days um spent some time
1:22 at the training ground attending a match
1:24 that was really good. And then I spent
1:26 some time in Leverkusen for three or
1:29 four days um before the the turn of the
1:31 year as well. And um have to say thanks
1:35 to those guys for being so open um and
1:38 sharing so much information about what
1:41 they're trying to do on the on the
1:43 football side. So um spent some time
1:45 speaking to the guys in the academy um
1:48 spent some time with their head of meth
1:49 methodology with our sporting director
1:52 um and it was really eye opening um a
1:55 lot of the the challenges you think um
1:58 you face you know when you're at a club
2:01 if the statue of Aberdine and then you
2:03 go to a club like Leverkus and you see
2:05 the resource that's available to them
2:08 but often they're facing some of the
2:11 same challenges that you you know, a
2:13 club with Aberdine standing would be
2:15 would be facing. So, really interesting
2:17 to see um in a in a different context
2:20 and um I've got one or two other um bits
2:24 and pieces going on doing just a bit of
2:26 advisory work in the background and um
2:30 now that the turn of the year's passed
2:32 um a lot more focused on what might come
2:35 next um on a permanent basis for me. So,
2:37 just working towards that.
2:39 >> Yeah. With you mentioned of course
2:40 having having some good visits there to
2:42 Larus as We obviously know the success
2:44 they've had in the last few years. So
2:46 that kind of hint that you know will you
2:47 be open to anything whether it be moving
2:49 abroad or like I said in Europe or even
2:51 further a field.
2:52 >> Yeah, absolutely. Um quite open-minded.
2:54 Um last year I actually did a sporting
2:58 director program with UF. It was the the
3:01 first time that they'd run such a a
3:04 program and there was um 40 other
3:07 sporting directors from all over Europe
3:09 um involved in that program. So really
3:12 interesting to um understand some of
3:15 their experiences um and they were
3:18 coming from um places like Iceland but
3:20 also um the lever kusen link Kim
3:23 Falenberg he was obviously coming from
3:25 there so um it was quite a eye openening
3:29 experience and one that really opened my
3:33 mind to um you know what might come next
3:35 whether that's domestically in Scotland
3:38 or whether that's a lot further a But
3:41 certainly um the opportunity to to try
3:44 something different and be in a
3:46 different environment does um appeal to
3:48 me.
3:50 >> I believe you on the back of that you've
3:52 got a decent sex aside team. Is that
3:53 right?
3:55 >> You've been horning your talents.
3:56 >> Yeah, we had a we had a brief uh a brief
3:59 chat yesterday, didn't we? And um on one
4:03 of the occasions on the program because
4:06 we're there for a week in in different
4:09 settings. Um I think we'd spent some
4:10 time in Germany on that occasion and uh
4:14 I was fortunate enough to there must
4:16 have been about 500 cups in my um in my
4:19 six side team. None of them obviously um
4:21 were achieved by by me. Um but guys like
4:25 Giovanni van Broncourse, Philipe Sendos,
4:28 Alfred from Boguson, um Aaron Hughes
4:31 from Northern Ireland, obviously really
4:33 really good guys, really humble guys for
4:35 what they've all achieved um in their
4:38 careers, but um obviously on a similar
4:41 journey to myself in fact, you know, in
4:44 terms of similar experiences and in
4:46 doing the sporting director role or
4:48 similar roles in the environments they
4:51 were they were coming from. So really
4:53 valuable time to spend time with these
4:54 guys.
4:56 >> Stephen, just on the back of that, give
4:57 can you give us a bit of an an insight
4:59 into the course and what what it
5:01 entailed and what it involved.
5:03 Yeah, I think the UF were keen um to run
5:07 um I think they would call it a flagship
5:10 course and um where it maybe uh is set
5:14 aside from other similar sport director
5:17 courses is um the the level of uh
5:22 individual that they wanted to to have
5:24 on the course and and people that were
5:26 already operating within the role rather
5:28 than um rather than people that were
5:31 that might be aspire hiring to the um to
5:34 the role. So um I think they they set
5:38 the the bar really high uh with that.
5:40 They challenged us um throughout the the
5:44 three months that we were on the course
5:45 which involved a week in Germany
5:48 visiting various clubs. Um Leverkus and
5:51 we mentioned already Bruce you mentioned
5:53 Glabback Brushia Dortmund and these were
5:55 the three venues that we that we visited
5:58 got exposed to to all of the activities
6:00 that they're undertaken on the on the
6:03 football side. Um then we spent a week
6:06 in Madrid. Um and again similar uh
6:10 similar types of experiences and that
6:13 was then followed up uh with a week in
6:15 uh Switzerland which um we had to do a
6:18 presentation at the end. We were given a
6:21 task and we had three hours to prepare a
6:23 sport and strategy for a club that we
6:25 hadn't previously been exposed to. Um so
6:28 we had to come up with that within 3
6:30 hours. we had to um submit that on the
6:35 second final day and on the final day um
6:38 we were all given a slot where we had to
6:40 present that to um to a panel of experts
6:44 um and we had guys like Paul Mitchell um
6:47 um who've obviously operated that high
6:49 level um in the past as one of the the
6:52 tutors for the uh for the course. So um
6:55 it was people of that caliber that we
6:57 were presenting to and um it was quite
7:01 an intense last 48 hours of the of the
7:03 course and um even some of the guys that
7:06 I've mentioned already felt that it felt
7:08 that pressure but once we all got
7:10 through it the the people on the course
7:12 did explain that they were trying to
7:15 replicate the type of pressure that you
7:17 might be under. if you get a call from,
7:20 you know, a demanding owner that wants
7:21 you to present a a strategy within
7:24 within 24 hours and and they wanted to
7:27 make it as real life as as possible and
7:29 they certainly managed to to achieve
7:32 that.
7:33 >> Yeah. Just on just on the the the role
7:35 of a sort of sporting director in
7:36 general, I know it's it's becoming a bit
7:37 more prevalent in Scottish football now
7:39 with Aberine and some other clubs as
7:40 well have it's um you know been
7:42 introduced in the last few years, but
7:44 obviously in Germany it's it's mega
7:45 sometimes they're almost bigger than the
7:46 manager themselves. are big
7:47 personalities these guys. So I guess
7:49 it's that that experience as well
7:51 getting to mix of people that are maybe
7:52 a bit more in tune with that sort of you
7:54 know the way it is in Germany as well
7:55 must have been quite quite interesting.
7:57 Yeah, absolutely. And again, um I think
7:59 it opens your mind to um how things
8:02 operate in other countries. And um one
8:04 thing that we need to always uh um do
8:08 ourselves, I think, is challenge
8:10 ourselves. You know, can we be better?
8:12 Are there things that we see in other
8:14 environments that we can uh that we can
8:16 take to Scotland? And like you said, um
8:19 sporting directors are they're much more
8:21 prominent in the media. Um I think
8:24 probably on a on a weekly basis um
8:27 certainly some of the more prominent
8:30 clubs you're hearing from the from the
8:32 sporting director and I suppose the
8:33 advantage of that is um trying to set
8:38 agendas publicly um because obviously
8:42 what we find probably in Scotland and in
8:44 the UK is um there's a lot of noise out
8:47 there in terms of what might be
8:48 happening at a football club. um there's
8:51 a lot of talk in the background. Um
8:54 there's uh maybe assumptions that that
8:57 aren't always um accurate. So the
9:00 ability to get a clear message across um
9:04 I think that's an advantage and um we've
9:06 started to see that at Aberdine and
9:08 other and other clubs more recently. So
9:11 um I think that's a trend that will and
9:14 that will continue. Um we did look at
9:17 the the scenario of obviously sporting
9:21 directors, how close they are to the to
9:23 the head coach and the technical aspect
9:25 um in dressing rooms and and on benches
9:27 and and things like that. And obviously
9:29 that is something that you see in
9:31 Germany. You just have to turn on a
9:33 Bundesliga match to see that that that
9:36 happens. Um but I think what they try
9:38 and do is they try and tread carefully
9:41 with that. They don't want to undermine
9:43 a head coach, you know, publicly. But
9:45 what they do want to do is they want to
9:48 be able to have a clear idea of how
9:52 things are operating and if um they can
9:56 then uh have a a more private
10:00 conversation with a with a head coach
10:02 and and offer their insight um whether
10:04 that's after a match or on the Monday
10:06 after a match or um or even something
10:10 with a more longer term view then um
10:12 then I think that can be of benefit. um
10:14 in the right scenario and setting.
10:18 >> Stephen, obviously you've you've been
10:19 out for a few months now. You've had a
10:21 few informal approaches. You've
10:25 what what what are you looking for next?
10:27 I mean, ideally, what's the next step
10:29 for yourself?
10:31 >> I think um
10:33 >> like I said before, quite open-minded
10:35 about um what actually comes immediately
10:38 next. The key for me is being in the
10:41 right environment, being um at a club
10:43 where you can continue to develop
10:45 yourself and I was fortunate at Aberdine
10:48 and opportunities like the sporting
10:49 director program at UFA um you know not
10:53 not every club can uh can provide an
10:56 opportunity uh like that and be
10:58 open-minded to to support their uh their
11:00 employees or their staff like that. So
11:02 being in the right environment that can
11:04 support that continued growth in in
11:06 myself. Um but also being with the right
11:10 people that have got the right vision
11:11 for the environment that they're that
11:13 they're in where um we can be innovative
11:18 where we can be uh creative and we've
11:20 got the resource uh to be able to
11:22 execute that and that could be you know
11:24 a organization that's similarly sized um
11:28 to Aberdine in a similar role that I was
11:31 uh that I was doing at Aberdine or um
11:33 clearly some of the bigger footballing
11:35 organizations and you see the multi-
11:38 club ownership groups um right across
11:40 Europe and and the world now where
11:44 within uh some of the the bigger clubs
11:47 they have multiple people executing
11:49 different elements of the same role. So,
11:52 um, if you're at Aberdine, um, then
11:54 obviously you've got one sporting
11:56 director. Uh, you don't have an
11:58 assistant sporting director or, um, or
12:00 other roles like that. But um even when
12:04 we were dealing with a city football
12:06 group, you know, when Pala Versa's
12:07 joining Aberdine or we were dealing with
12:09 Liverpool, when Ramse's going to
12:12 Liverpool or and Leon Clarkson's coming
12:15 to to Aberdine at different stages of
12:17 that process, you're dealing with two,
12:19 three, four different um different
12:21 people at um each stage. So, um I think
12:25 some of the experiences I've obviously
12:26 had at Aberdine at all different stages
12:29 of either bringing a player in um a
12:32 player um exiting or whether it's more
12:35 on the strategic side, but you know,
12:36 creating and building an environment,
12:38 then I think that lends itself to um
12:41 different opportunities at at different
12:43 clubs and environments. So, like I said,
12:45 open-minded, but the important thing is
12:48 the the people and the vision that they
12:50 that they have going forward.
12:53 You're in there obviously next next step
12:55 now. Was that 25 years I believe? Was
12:57 it? Is that right?
12:58 >> Yeah. 25 just over 25 years. Yeah. Yeah.
13:02 >> It was something journey to wasn't it
13:04 since you stepped in to be DJ's
13:06 assistant.
13:07 >> Yeah. Absolutely. Well, the first thing
13:09 is I was I'm eternally grateful to to
13:12 David Johnston for the opportunity that
13:14 um that he gave me. you know, a
13:16 19-year-old um turning 20 nervous young
13:19 guy that um when he saw that opportunity
13:22 to to work in football and work at
13:24 Aberdine, then that was the only thing
13:26 that I that I wanted to do and was
13:28 focused on on getting that opportunity.
13:30 And luckily for me um David afforded me
13:33 that opportunity and he was a guy over 8
13:37 n 10 years of of that 25 years that and
13:41 really gave me a grounding and set an
13:43 expectation in terms of work ethic in
13:46 terms of some of the sacrifices that you
13:48 have to make when you want to be
13:51 successful in football whether that's on
13:53 the pitch or whether like me it was um
13:56 it was off the off the pitch. So yeah,
13:59 really grateful for David for that
14:01 opportunity and obviously and
14:03 subsequently for the other opportunities
14:05 that that people there um afforded me um
14:08 ultimately landing up in the in the
14:10 director of football role and um
14:13 hopefully that you know gives me a good
14:14 platform for my career going forward.
14:17 >> Yeah, Aberine can be a bit of a roller
14:19 coaster club at times but I guess for
14:20 someone from the local city to be
14:21 involved with the club that long it must
14:23 be you must be immensely proud of that.
14:25 >> Yeah, absolutely. I um I always knew
14:28 that particularly when you um take a
14:31 role like director of football, you know
14:33 that's not going to be forever um and uh
14:36 the the clock effectively starts ticking
14:38 at that point. So and to be able to do
14:41 that for four and a half um sort of five
14:43 years. Uh I was really privileged um to
14:47 to have that opportunity and really
14:49 proud of some of the things we achieved
14:51 and you mentioned it there. it's not the
14:53 most um uh you know linear growth or um
14:58 direction towards success and uh there
15:01 was things that we did really well.
15:03 There was things that we didn't do uh so
15:05 well and um the no doubt the club will
15:08 have learned from some of those things
15:10 and certainly I would have learned from
15:12 some of those things as well. But
15:14 despite some of the um some of the
15:17 change that we had during uh that time
15:19 in terms of what fans might see, you
15:21 know, um managers um coming and going,
15:24 for example, what we were able to build
15:26 in the background um hopefully was
15:29 something more stable. And that that was
15:31 the I suppose the crux of of my role was
15:34 to make to make sure that despite some
15:36 of those um you know bigger changes that
15:39 you you would see externally that we had
15:42 a more stable environment internally
15:44 within the football uh department right
15:46 across you know academy performance and
15:50 the first team in the in the background
15:52 and um despite some of the those things
15:54 that we've had to deal with um you know
15:56 coming out of COVID and then um some of
15:59 the changes that that we did h make. We
16:02 still had some relative success on the
16:04 on the pitch. Um obviously with uh
16:07 regular semi-finals, occasional cup
16:10 finals um qualifying for European
16:12 football, group stage football, and
16:14 obviously culminating in the in the
16:16 Scottish Cup uh wins. So there's not
16:18 many other clubs in Scotland that can um
16:22 that can boast that sort of record. So
16:24 really proud of the um some of the
16:26 things that were that were still
16:27 achieved on the pitch.
16:29 I mean you spoke about some of the
16:31 highlights there on the pitch and then
16:32 there was obviously some big transfers
16:35 record transfer sales couple in there
16:37 Calvin Ramsey Boyan you've seen what's
16:39 happened with the the players coming
16:40 through the academy you must look back
16:42 at your time at with some great pride
16:45 because I mean there some real
16:47 highlights and there's been a lot of
16:48 hard work that maybe a lot of people
16:50 behind behind the scene of the sorry in
16:52 front the cameras don't haven't haven't
16:54 seen you know what I mean they're not
16:55 aware of what's actually been done but
16:56 you must leave there with a great sense
16:57 of pride after 25 years.
17:00 >> Yeah, absolutely. And um you know all
17:02 those things don't happen by accident or
17:06 they don't usually. Um maybe it can
17:08 happen by accident on one or two
17:09 occasions, but um to you know regularly
17:13 build value in in players that takes a a
17:16 plan and it takes a strategy in the in
17:18 the background. And that's something we
17:21 h set about doing you know five, six,
17:24 seven years ago.
17:25 um over the last two or three years, you
17:27 know, you start to see the um the fruits
17:30 of that and for an Aberdeene to continue
17:33 to be a success and um and not just be
17:37 satisfied with with what's already been
17:39 achieved, but to try and you know go a
17:42 step further. Um, I don't think any of
17:44 us would argue the fact that, you know,
17:47 when we've got to European group stage
17:49 level football on the last couple
17:50 occasions, you're wanting a bit more um
17:54 in terms of, you know, giving yourself
17:55 an opportunity to to progress, being
17:58 more competitive against um some of
18:00 these bigger uh bigger clubs. And the
18:03 only way to do that is um to create more
18:06 value in your um in your squad and uh
18:10 realize that value and then be able to
18:12 reinvest. Um the club's done
18:14 unbelievably well commercially in a
18:17 Scottish sense um over the last four or
18:19 five years and you can see that growth
18:21 um that's there for for everyone to see
18:24 over that um period. Um but to to make a
18:28 real big difference um and to be able to
18:31 invest even more in the in the plane
18:34 squad and the infrastructure around
18:35 about the plane squad then it's wholly
18:38 relying on the ability to realize value
18:41 in in player uh trading and um obviously
18:45 that that takes some brave decisions. Um
18:48 sometimes it takes some unpopular
18:50 decisions. Um sometimes we see players
18:53 that uh you know we've made an
18:55 investment in and it doesn't always uh
18:58 work out but I suppose the trick is to
19:01 be better than the rest of the market in
19:03 trying to to do that. And um I think you
19:07 know market data would tell you that 50%
19:10 of all um player executions are
19:13 unsuccessful and that they come to a
19:16 club and they don't make the impression
19:17 you would expect them to make. So um
19:20 anything that you can do to deliver a
19:22 number beyond that um through the uh you
19:26 know a data informed process through
19:27 opening up your network um through being
19:31 as thorough as you can be uh when you're
19:33 engaging a player to to come in and then
19:36 importantly creating the right
19:38 development environment for them and
19:40 giving them the opportunities. And
19:42 that's where you know the academy in
19:44 particular um we've seen when players
19:46 get the opportunity um that the quality
19:49 and the potential is there. Um we saw it
19:52 with guys like McKenna and and Ramsey
19:55 but we're seeing it now with uh with
19:57 Jack Mil and and Dylan Loben when when
20:00 they've had opportunity as well. And the
20:02 key here is to be really patient with
20:05 these guys. Um I think it was Alex Smith
20:09 that had uh shared an anecdote once um
20:12 about Stephen Wright if you remember um
20:14 the fullback Aberdine that went to
20:16 Rangers um in the I think it was the mid
20:19 mid 90s and
20:20 >> um Alex Smith had said of his first
20:23 season that you know 50 of the games you
20:25 know he got pass marks sorry 50% of the
20:28 games he got pass marks and 50% he was
20:31 just he wasn't near the level but they
20:33 knew at that time that they had to
20:35 persevere with that to have him arrive
20:38 at the level. Um but one of the things I
20:40 suppose that uh that the club's doing
20:42 that um we installed in the in the last
20:46 um few months before um I left was the
20:49 cooperation system and hopefully and
20:52 that will allow young talented players
20:54 to get exposure to men's football more
20:56 regularly um you know without the risk
20:59 of when you're operating um the the
21:02 squad sizes that that Aberdina or other
21:04 Scottish clubs are and you can't rely on
21:07 you know huge um squad sizes that you
21:09 might see operate in England or or on
21:11 the on the continent. The flexibility
21:13 that the cooperation system allows you
21:15 to allow these players to go out and
21:16 loan, get their exper experience, but if
21:19 you need to recall them at any time um
21:21 to come and be involved uh with Aberdine
21:24 teams, then you can then you can do
21:26 that. I think that's been a big positive
21:28 step forward for for Scottish football.
21:31 >> Yeah. Just just on that, I know it's
21:32 something that the Scots about a lot as
21:33 well. One of the big challenges of
21:35 course that the Scottish clubs face is
21:36 like when you say you've got these young
21:37 players coming through that the teams in
21:38 England are able just come and snack
21:40 them up at some point we've seen so many
21:42 you know from Aberdine even Fletcher
21:43 Boyd in in the last year and others from
21:45 Veners and Celtic as well. So again
21:46 that's the real chance that you want to
21:47 see them come through but as soon as
21:48 they make a make a big impact they're
21:50 already you know getting eyed up for for
21:52 big moves.
21:53 >> Yeah. And some of them are um are
21:56 exposed to that type of risk even before
21:59 they've made a big impact. And um
22:02 because of Brexit and listen this has
22:04 been talked about to the death, no
22:05 doubt, but it's probably worth
22:07 reinforcing because of Brexit, English
22:10 clubs um it's it's impossible really for
22:13 them to bring talent from overseas um
22:15 between 16 and 18. Uh that door was open
22:18 to them when the UK was part of the EU.
22:22 Now that that door's closed, then they
22:24 still need to fill their academy teams
22:26 with good talent. Um it's a competitive
22:29 arena in England. We all we all know
22:31 that. And with the resource that some of
22:34 thesemies have got available to them. Um
22:37 some of the bud academy budgets in
22:40 England would dwarf the first team
22:42 budgets in Scotland. And that's that's
22:44 just a fact. Um so that risk is is real
22:49 and it's there. And I suppose the the
22:52 trick for likes of an Aberdeene or you
22:54 see it with other clubs, you know, St.
22:56 Mirin, Motherwell, um, Hibs and Hearts,
22:59 they've all lost talent to to England,
23:03 but all would say that, you know,
23:06 academy development and and the
23:08 progression of players is key to their
23:11 um their football strategies. then it's
23:14 trying to
23:16 educate parents, educate players about
23:18 the uh the opportunity that they can get
23:20 in Scotland. But educating them and
23:23 selling the the story to them is one
23:25 part of that. And then evidencing that
23:28 through the decisions that you make and
23:30 the pathways that you provide and the
23:32 opportunities that you provide. That's
23:34 that's another. And this is the uh the
23:37 conundrum that the clubs will will
23:39 always um have because at what point do
23:43 you um provide that opportunity like
23:46 Alex Smith did with Steven Wright versus
23:49 the risk that that you bring down the
23:52 overall performance off the first team
23:54 when um you're trying to achieve
23:56 performance on the pitch, the demands
23:58 that the fans and the the club um puts
24:02 upon that um but also provide this
24:04 development pathway and finding that
24:06 that balance. And when um I spent time
24:09 at Leverkusen, for example, this is a
24:12 challenge that even the biggest clubs
24:14 with big reputations for player
24:16 development have. So it's not unique to
24:19 Aberdine. It's not unique to Scottish
24:21 football. And um most countries you
24:24 speak to, they'll talk about um the
24:27 maybe some of the darth and talent that
24:29 that they have. um the erh some of the
24:33 other focuses that young er um men or
24:37 boys have that that distract them from
24:40 football um and uh the challenges that
24:43 we see in Scotland. Um they're they're
24:46 being felt right across the uh the
24:48 continent. So, it's about who um who's
24:51 bravest, who can be clever in terms of
24:54 the opportunities that they h that they
24:56 offer and trying to um I suppose follow
25:01 through with the promise that you're
25:03 going to be a club that develops young
25:05 talent and actually um give those young
25:07 players the opportunity.
25:09 A lot of the the Scottish clubs have
25:12 lost to quite a few players, young
25:14 players in recent years and a lot of the
25:16 time that's been through freedom of
25:18 contract or before they signed that that
25:21 first pro contract. But with Fletcher
25:23 Boyd, I mean your stance was slightly
25:26 different because I'm not mistaken and
25:29 he signed a pro contract maybe two and
25:31 that allowed you to get maximum value
25:33 for that. I mean, how did that come
25:34 about? Because once you get them to sign
25:36 the pool contract, that's when the real
25:38 value comes in and you can command more
25:40 than transfer fees, can't you?
25:42 >> Yeah. I mean, the risk at 16
25:44 um for a boy like that is they can
25:47 literally walk out the door, sign for an
25:49 English club. It triggers the
25:50 compensation entitlement and that's it,
25:53 done. There's no negotiation or there
25:55 doesn't need to be a negotiation. The
25:57 the figures are set out in the in the
25:59 FIFA rules. And for a guy that's been in
26:02 your academy from say age 8 n or 10 and
26:05 through to to 16, you might lose a
26:08 player for 2002 240,000
26:11 something in that um sort of uh range
26:14 which if you're investing significantly
26:17 in your academy over that period of time
26:18 then clearly that's not achieving what
26:21 you're setting out to uh achieve. Um so
26:25 I think the key um particularly in the
26:28 latter years of the development within
26:29 the academy is when um players start to
26:33 rely on agents more it's about building
26:35 that relationship that rapport that
26:37 trust with the players representatives
26:40 with their parents with the player in
26:42 terms of what the immediate next steps
26:46 um look like for them. So when you've
26:48 got a talent like a Fletcher Boyd and
26:51 you want to accelerate him through the
26:54 through the pathway then um you need to
26:56 afford early opportunities like training
26:58 with the first team like um getting
27:00 exposure to uh to first team minutes and
27:04 um these were all discussions that were
27:05 had with uh with Fletcher with um his
27:08 parents with his agent and before he
27:12 committed to that initial contract at at
27:15 16. So, um, we were able to, um, to
27:19 achieve that at that moment in time,
27:21 which meant that, um, Fletcher wasn't
27:23 going to walk out the door and, um, you
27:25 know, leave Aberdine with a a poultry
27:28 compensatory amount. Um, and then
27:30 obviously once Fletcher starts to get
27:33 some early exposure and a lot of the the
27:36 clubs in England, for example, they know
27:38 Fletcher from when he's 14, 15, um, 16.
27:42 they don't have to wait until he's 17 18
27:44 because he's already getting exposure
27:46 whether it's you know international
27:48 recognition for for Scotland Victory
27:50 Shield or or other um other age groups
27:54 and uh we you know we were batting away
27:57 that interest for two three years but
28:00 there comes a point where it's difficult
28:03 to keep saying no either to um to to the
28:07 player um to the to the representative
28:11 who has um a big influence on what the
28:13 outcome might be. And when it gets to a
28:16 value where the club um believes that uh
28:20 it's worth um you know taking uh that um
28:24 or recouping some of that uh that
28:26 investment and then being able to
28:27 reinvest that back into the um into the
28:30 whole football operation. And um
28:33 annually Aberdine sets a player sale
28:36 target as part of our our model to
28:38 continue invest um at the level that
28:41 they do in players in the first team and
28:44 um obviously Fletcher going to Aston
28:46 Villa at that time would have helped
28:49 towards achieving that target.
28:52 >> I think you were looking at you were
28:53 saying was it up to before the summer
28:55 was it 21 million pounds in roughly and
28:59 about5 million on player purchases. Is
29:02 that is that the balance sort of
29:03 roughly?
29:04 >> Yeah, I mean um if you if you look back
29:07 over sort of the last um four or five
29:09 years when um this became um you know a
29:13 more deliberate approach then the
29:16 investment that we've been able to make
29:18 in uh players in terms of transfer fees
29:22 um over the last um few years that's
29:24 because we've been able to realize value
29:27 on the um on the other end of it. And it
29:30 it goes back to the and the strategy
29:32 that I that I mentioned before. If
29:34 you're going to um try and take a step
29:36 forward, particularly on the um on the
29:38 European stage, then um you need to be
29:41 realizing that value and you need to be
29:43 reinvesting it back into the the system.
29:46 And you look at clubs that um
29:49 historically maybe wouldn't have made an
29:51 indent in European football like Bodlint
29:54 or Micheland um Norland clubs that
29:58 Aberdine historically would have maybe
30:00 outperformed or certainly would have
30:02 compared themselves with. These clubs
30:04 are taking giant strides forward because
30:06 they've been able to execute um a
30:09 trading model that allows them to
30:11 reinvest back into their first team
30:14 infrastructure. And it's building that
30:16 reputation over time that um players
30:19 that you do sell and this is a key part
30:21 of the that the strategy that when they
30:24 move on that they do well at the places
30:26 where they where they land up and then
30:28 you've got a reputation for developing
30:30 good young players. And sometimes that
30:32 obviously um works in the in the players
30:35 favor and and and other times um you
30:38 know maybe they don't find the right
30:40 environment where they where they go and
30:42 they have to move on again. But um it's
30:45 building that reputation over a period
30:47 of time. It doesn't um happen overnight.
30:49 And it didn't happen overnight for these
30:51 clubs that I've just uh referenced. But
30:53 they've arrived at a point now that I'm
30:56 sure Aberdine and listen, this is an
30:59 opportunity for other um Scottish clubs.
31:01 the the trading record um right across
31:05 Scotland um is not great right now, but
31:08 there's huge opportunity to try and um
31:11 to try and improve that uh if we get
31:13 this pathway in part right if clubs are
31:17 open-minded and creative in terms of how
31:18 they recruit players and where they
31:20 recruit them from. So, it's a big
31:22 opportunity for Scottish clubs.
31:23 >> Yeah, especially you mentioned that with
31:25 the sell on value as well. I guess
31:26 that's the real thing because there's
31:28 been several Aberun players and Louis
31:29 Ferguson is maybe the main one but even
31:31 you know with Ramadan I don't think
31:32 anyone expected him to be playing you
31:33 know consistently Syria for what three
31:35 four years now so I guess the clubs are
31:37 just hoping that these these players can
31:39 make that that next step and you know
31:40 they might get some financial benefit of
31:42 it. Yeah, definitely. One of the things
31:44 that we always tried to do at Aberdine
31:47 was make sure that we had a sell on
31:49 arrangement in any transfer. um whether
31:53 you know that was a young player moving
31:55 like Fletcher Boyd did or whether um it
31:57 was a more lucrative transfer fee like
32:00 Boyan going to Jirona and then sometimes
32:04 that might the doors open for that to
32:06 land for you in the future and other
32:09 times obviously Ban's moved quickly so
32:12 um there's there's no opportunity there
32:14 to to realize that sellon um value but
32:18 the the key is I think to have to give
32:21 yourself as many opportunities as you
32:23 can to land something like that. So if
32:25 you have seven, eight, nine, 10 of those
32:28 arrangements um going on at any one
32:31 time, then hopefully down the line, you
32:33 know, maybe two or three of them will
32:34 land for the club and hopefully that's
32:36 the case.
32:38 >> In terms of I mean we spoke before you
32:40 were involved in in two record sales and
32:42 Calvin Ramsey to Liverpool and then as
32:45 you said Bayern Mioski to Jirona there I
32:47 mean they don't just happen by accident
32:49 either. Clubs don't just slap club
32:52 record fees on the table sort of thing.
32:53 That's built up over time, isn't it? And
32:55 I mean, I presume that you've obviously
32:58 worked with the agents to try and get to
32:59 that point. You know, I mean, it's not
33:01 just it's been a a one-year plan,
33:03 two-year plan in Buan's case or or
33:06 Calvin, what's the sort of plan? Can you
33:07 give us a sort of insight into these
33:09 sort of deals?
33:10 >> Yeah, I mean, the discussion on that
33:12 actually starts to happen before the
33:14 player commits to the club in the first
33:17 place. Um and uh somebody like Boan um
33:22 he obviously comes in um it's a healthy
33:25 transfer fee for Aberdine um taking him
33:27 from MTK Budapest and he commits to you
33:31 know a long-term contract a 4year uh
33:34 term uh on that and again that's
33:37 something that we tried to be really
33:40 brave on in terms of contract terms uh
33:42 the length of contracts and you'll have
33:44 seen it with some of the more emerging
33:47 talents that that Aberdine committed to
33:49 just in the past um summer again on on
33:52 long-term deals and that's all with a
33:53 view to protecting that value and that
33:56 discussion happens in clearly in
33:58 conjunction with the player and in
34:00 conjunction with the agent when they
34:01 commit at that time and um for somebody
34:04 like Boan the plan was always to have
34:06 him around for two years. So even after
34:09 he had a a really strong and exceptional
34:12 first season in terms of the the goals
34:15 that he was scoring in his overall
34:18 performances which were getting interest
34:20 from um England and right across Europe,
34:24 our messaging at that time was he wasn't
34:26 for sale in that in that window. We
34:29 wanted to build his value further um
34:32 over a longer period of time. we wanted
34:34 to enjoy having his talents in um in the
34:37 building for a a longer period of time,
34:39 we still have things we want to achieve
34:42 um or wanted to achieve on the pitch. Um
34:44 so as long as you're transparent and uh
34:48 the plan is aligned with the player um
34:50 and the agent then um that's when it uh
34:54 becomes a little bit more
34:56 straightforward when the strong interest
34:59 whether it's from Italy whether it's
35:00 from Spain with Jirona in particular um
35:04 and that conversation becomes a more
35:06 straightforward one um with player and
35:09 agent and also with uh the interested um
35:12 club And uh we were
35:16 I want to say quite scientific in terms
35:20 of how we arrive at player values as
35:22 well. There's plenty of data out there
35:24 in the market that'll that will um sort
35:26 of point you towards the the trends um
35:28 in the market and that's um something
35:31 that we that we use that would give us
35:33 an idea on what was a suitable um fee
35:36 range in in terms of setting our own
35:38 expectation um internally. And um we
35:42 were fortunate enough with uh with um
35:45 most of the the bigger uh transfers that
35:48 we executed, we landed within the range
35:51 that we'd that we'd set um out. And
35:53 clearly um what the media might get
35:56 exposed to is um the value of the you
35:59 know the upfront payments, the
36:01 guaranteed payments. And then um the
36:03 trick is then to try and build more
36:05 value over time and through appearance
36:08 related um targets or international
36:10 recognition or like you said before the
36:12 the salon element. So that was something
36:15 that was really deliberate that was
36:18 strategic and um everyone internally um
36:22 at the club you the chairman the chief
36:24 exec myself and also the player and an
36:28 agent in any scenario we're all
36:30 relatively clear on um as we go through
36:32 the the negotiation. So there's no
36:34 surprises when when we land on a um on a
36:37 figure and the and the timing is right
36:38 for a player to move on.
36:41 I mean, in terms of recruitment, it's
36:43 always sort of a a team effort sort of
36:45 thing where everyone's got an input sort
36:47 of thing. I mean, you were quite
36:49 influential in quite a few deals,
36:50 weren't you? I mean, in terms of
36:52 bringing players, I think Max Noister
36:54 was part Did you not bring him to the
36:56 table sort of thing? And then there was
36:57 others. I mean, I think Mitchell Frames
37:00 obviously come in recent weeks as well.
37:01 I think you were heavily involved in
37:02 that as well. I mean, in terms of you're
37:05 you're involved in all the deals, but
37:07 really involved in central to those
37:09 deals. Yeah, I think the key for um a
37:12 club like Aberdine is um to try and be
37:15 as creative as possible in terms of how
37:17 it arrives at the some of the
37:19 recruitment solutions that it does. So
37:21 whether that's through you know the data
37:24 benchmarking approach that um that we've
37:27 built up over um sort of two to three um
37:30 four years um in the making and refining
37:33 that as as we went whether it was
37:35 through the network that um people at
37:38 the club myself um Allan as chief
37:40 executive um obviously um the heads of
37:44 recruitment that that I worked with um
37:46 over that period of time or whether it
37:48 was through the more traditional uh
37:50 scouting uh approach and people being
37:52 active on the ground and players were
37:55 identified through all of these means
37:57 and then um the important part is that
38:00 you do the um the thorough assessment
38:02 regardless of how those land on your um
38:06 on your desk and um in in Matt's uh case
38:10 Mattz was actually a player that we'd
38:12 looked at in 2022 and obviously there
38:15 had been um a fair amount of change both
38:18 in the recruitment department and in the
38:20 the coaching setup since 2022. So, um
38:24 when we were working on center backs in
38:27 that in that January, um I was able to
38:30 uh remind people that Mattz was a player
38:32 that we'd been interested in at that
38:34 point. I'd reached out to his agent just
38:35 to find out what his availability might
38:38 be and um sometimes the stars just align
38:42 and we were fortunate enough that Mattz
38:45 was actually coming to an arrangement
38:47 with Ference Varos at that time to um
38:49 exit his contract there because he
38:51 hadn't played as many games that he as
38:53 he'd hoped in the in his second year at
38:55 Ference Varos. So the timing was good.
38:58 He was familiar um with Aberdine as was
39:00 his agent because of the previous um
39:03 interest that we'd h that we'd had and
39:07 and that was a um a potential solution
39:10 at the time that I was able to bring uh
39:12 to the manager um and the recruitment
39:14 team and uh thankfully enough um with
39:17 the work that they did thereafter and
39:20 they were satisfied that Mattz was
39:21 somebody that could come and bring
39:23 something positive um to the to the team
39:26 and make a an immediate impact as well.
39:29 And I think um we've all seen the the
39:32 positive impact we we've had and we wish
39:34 him a a speedy recovery obviously with
39:36 the injury that he picked up in the in
39:38 the game recently against Kernik.
39:40 >> Yeah. Ju just on him specifically as
39:42 well. You mentioned it before about
39:44 essentially how every transfer is a
39:45 gambler and people might look at that
39:46 and say, "Oh, he hadn't hadn't played
39:47 for so long." But it must be such a
39:49 great feeling when all that effort
39:50 you've put in to get him there, you
39:52 know, comes out. And obviously some of
39:53 the performances, especially towards the
39:55 end of that the back end of the season
39:56 were were brilliant.
39:58 >> Yeah, absolutely. And um because uh
40:01 there was people at the club that were
40:02 familiar with Matts going back to 2022.
40:06 You know, this wasn't um a player that
40:09 just landed on the desk because an agent
40:11 had, you know, dropped you a WhatsApp
40:13 message or or something like that. Um
40:15 this was a player that there was a
40:17 familiarity with so we knew that he had
40:20 a a good level at that point. Um he uh
40:24 he was out of Aberdine's reach at that
40:26 point. Um I can't remember what age he
40:29 was. I think 22 23 maybe at that point
40:32 in his um his career and uh you know
40:36 going to a Champions League club like
40:37 Ference Varos that was that was always a
40:40 decision he was going to make at that
40:42 moment in his um in his career. So it
40:45 was good that we were able to um lean on
40:49 you know a picture that we built up over
40:52 um a long period of time going back to
40:55 uh to you know three years prior um and
40:58 use that in our process our decision-m
41:00 process and um get that in front of the
41:03 manager at the time as well so that he
41:05 was satisfied that yes um Matt is a
41:08 player that can come in and help him and
41:11 and particularly in how we want to
41:14 Stephen, obviously you had a lot of big
41:16 transfers there, not just the the record
41:17 ones. You had obviously Lewis Ferguson
41:19 going to Bologna. You had Ross Mccuri
41:21 going to Bristol City, Papa, Shaden
41:24 Morris. There's quite a lot of decent
41:26 transfers going out for for decent fees,
41:29 which is good. But are there any sort of
41:30 stories or anything that sort of you can
41:33 tell maybe an insight to some of the
41:35 fans just to gives an insight in some of
41:37 these stories? Yeah, I suppose that you
41:41 know everyone is unique um in of itself
41:44 and um sometimes it can get a bit
41:48 emotional despite you know you you set
41:50 out a plan um when a first bid comes in
41:54 and you're expecting that bid, the
41:55 players expecting that bid, the agent's
41:57 expecting that bid. Um but obviously a
42:01 club's never going to accept the first
42:03 bid. So there's always a little bit
42:04 angst involved in the in the process at
42:08 that point in time. But um in terms of
42:10 players coming in, one um one thing that
42:13 springs to mind and we had a great guy
42:16 and I think fans and um and media and
42:19 everyone at the club would agree, Eel
42:21 Ramadani um who was um a character on
42:26 the pitch um and a huge character off
42:30 the pitch as well. And one of the things
42:32 um that sets all of these players that
42:34 you've actually just referenced that
42:36 make these moves aside is it's their
42:39 commitment to their profession and how
42:41 seriously uh they take a process like
42:44 transferring club, how seriously they
42:46 take their their training, how they
42:48 apply themselves um on the pitch. So
42:51 it's no coincidence that um you know
42:54 guys like Ferguson or McCroy or Ramadani
42:56 get the opportunities to move um that
42:59 they that they got and um Eel was one
43:03 that was uh wanted to make sure you know
43:04 everything was 100% right for him to
43:07 make a big step from uh from Hungary to
43:09 come to to Scotland and you know a place
43:13 he was um unfamiliar with. And one of
43:15 the things um that people might not
43:18 appreciate on the outside is some of the
43:22 um technical aspects you've got to
43:24 navigate, you know, when you're signing
43:25 a player from from overseas um to do
43:28 with, you know, different tax regimes. A
43:31 player's been earning, you know, a
43:32 certain amount of money in in a a
43:34 foreign tax regime. They come to the the
43:36 UK. What are the implications for what
43:39 they've earned in the place they've come
43:40 from? what are the implications on what
43:42 they're going to earn when they arrive
43:44 um in in Aberdine or in Scotland and um
43:49 they're always keen to understand what
43:51 their net position is going to be in um
43:54 Scottish and UK clubs I think are used
43:57 to negotiating in in gross amounts and
44:00 it's a lot more straightforward um but
44:03 uh you know when you're moving your your
44:06 family abroad you need to understand
44:07 what the what the net position is going
44:09 to be in Um I think there was a bit of
44:11 nervousness on um Eil's part um before
44:15 he uh finally um sort of committed and
44:19 his a agent had called me one night
44:21 saying look I think we've got a a bit of
44:23 a challenge and there's an issue here
44:24 with some of the the calculation um we
44:28 need to be clear to you know what um
44:30 what the implications for him are going
44:32 to be when he um when he arrives in
44:34 Aberdine and um because he's quite
44:36 serious guy serious about um you know
44:39 getting everything right on and off the
44:40 pitch. Um he he was quite emotional. I
44:44 don't mind saying and I'm sure he
44:46 wouldn't mind me sharing that as well.
44:49 Um and I had to, you know, quickly jump
44:52 on a FaceTime call in my uh bed when my
44:56 wife was lying alongside me. I think it
44:58 was, you know, near midnight one night
45:01 just to um ease his his concerns because
45:06 and one thing that I would say about
45:09 Aberdine is the people at Aberdine and
45:12 certainly myself, we always acted with
45:14 um absolute integrity in every deal uh
45:17 that we that we did. That was absolutely
45:20 key for us in our our reputations and we
45:22 would never try and um try and you know
45:26 paint a false position for a player or
45:29 an agent or anything like that you know
45:30 because football's a small world. No
45:32 doubt in the future you're going to be
45:33 dealing with that agent or that football
45:35 club again. So um the good news was that
45:38 we'd managed to ease his concern on the
45:41 um on what the position was going to be
45:43 and ultimately um he came to Aberdine
45:47 eventually after a bit of a drama with
45:49 his uh visa um and uh again because um
45:54 Eel was so keen to get started on on
45:57 preseason and he w he actually wasn't
46:00 allowed to leave his homeland because
46:04 his passport was effectively in
46:06 in the visa process and I don't know if
46:08 you you might remember but boy Mioski
46:11 was signing at the same time and Boyan
46:13 actually got his passport back really
46:15 quickly which allowed him actually to
46:17 travel on preseason camp to I think it
46:19 was Spain um we went to when Jim Goodwin
46:23 was was manager and Ramadan he wasn't
46:26 allowed to travel so he was particularly
46:28 upset at having to miss out on that um
46:32 on that camp and he had to wait another
46:35 few weeks till the till the passport um
46:38 finally was found and arrived with the
46:41 the relevant visa um intact and he was
46:44 allowed to get started but because of
46:45 the professional he was he put in so
46:47 much work on an individual basis that he
46:50 arrived you know ready to go 100% on day
46:52 one on Yelbert as well I'm sure you
46:55 maybe liked to have kept him for a bit
46:56 longer you know that incredible season
46:58 really but I guess was that more of the
46:59 players part where he maybe thought this
47:00 opportunity I've just got to take it and
47:02 then the club were happy with the the
47:03 fee that they got in the
47:05 Yeah, I I I think um when you make an
47:09 investment in a player like uh Ramadani
47:12 and it was a really modest um investment
47:15 in in that one, it you know it wasn't at
47:17 the same level um in terms of transfer
47:19 fee as you know bringing a Miovski or
47:22 one or two of the players that were
47:24 engaged um last summer and when a
47:28 opportunity like Seras presented to a
47:31 player um like Ramadani whose dream it
47:33 always was to play in Syria. Um, you
47:37 know, it's just over the Adriatic from
47:40 from his homeland and it meant he was a
47:43 lot closer to his family than um, you
47:46 know, if he'd continued his career in
47:48 Aberdine and obviously this the type of
47:50 salary that Allet lee or any other Syria
47:54 club can offer um would, you know, dwarf
47:57 what Aberdine would be able to um to
48:00 afford to pay him. So it does get to a
48:02 point where you need to make a decision.
48:04 Do you want um to realize, you know,
48:08 that significant um return on investment
48:11 at that moment in time? Um or do you try
48:14 and navigate that process with a player
48:17 that um could potentially be unhappy for
48:21 a for a period of time at a critical
48:23 moment for um for the club. And in that
48:26 um scenario, you know, we decided we
48:28 needed to um try and engage with with
48:30 Leche and get best value for the club um
48:34 at the time. And I think everyone was
48:36 really satisfied um with the outcome in
48:38 terms of the financial side of it. But
48:40 obviously the challenge then is to try
48:42 and play replace a player like um
48:44 Ramadani, you know, who'd um started to
48:47 make an impression on the international
48:49 stage and um and that's never going to
48:52 be easy. Um and uh I think
48:57 a number of people would say you know
48:59 he's we've we hadn't been able to
49:01 replace him even to um to this day in
49:04 terms of a player of that specific
49:06 profile and that's the challenge going
49:07 forward.
49:09 Steven obviously we thought a bit about
49:11 transfers in your time at Ain there's
49:13 been quite a few managerial changes the
49:16 club are embarking on a
49:19 the latest managerial search it will be
49:22 strange for you from the outside I
49:23 suppose but one name that has been
49:26 mentioned is the Norwegian manager Eric
49:29 Hornland do you do you know much about
49:31 him
49:33 >> yeah um we were familiar with uh with
49:36 Eric Hornland uh in on previous
49:39 occasions. Um I'd actually got the
49:42 opportunity to to speak to him um
49:45 previously and he has a really strong
49:50 background in terms of you know bringing
49:52 a a club similar to Aberdine stature um
49:56 to to good success in in Bran and again
50:00 being successful uh you know to a
50:03 certain extent on a European stage. Um,
50:07 and I think in terms of his approach and
50:10 his um, style of play, I think that's
50:12 something that would be popular with the
50:15 with the Aberdine support and certainly
50:17 something that looks um, from the
50:19 outside, me looking in now and like it
50:22 could be a good fit for Aberdine.
50:24 >> Yeah. What from your the occasions you
50:27 did, you know, you you met him or had
50:29 some conversations, what kind of
50:30 personality is he as well?
50:33 Um, I would say he's a strong minded,
50:36 strong willed um, character. I would say
50:39 he's a guy that probably um, sets his
50:42 expectations really high, which is I
50:45 think what um, Aberdine um, needs right
50:49 now. and um he'll be a guy that can come
50:52 in and um you know lead that side of the
50:57 um of the football um operation and a
50:59 guy that that will um command uh a high
51:02 level of um of respect and both in terms
51:05 of the people he's working with you know
51:08 um like Lutz in the role now um Allan as
51:11 chief exec and Dave as as chairman but
51:14 also importantly the um the player
51:17 group. So, um, like I said, yeah, on the
51:19 on the outside looking in, um, this
51:21 looks like it could be a good fit if
51:23 they can pull it off.
51:25 >> Stephen, going back to mean,
51:28 how many managers were you involved in
51:30 from from the start in your direct sort
51:31 of early director of football? Was it
51:33 the first one, Steven Glass sort of
51:34 thing and that sort of promoted role?
51:37 >> Yeah. Um Stephen H came in um he was
51:41 engaged in I think it was the April and
51:44 something like that and then my role
51:46 changed um officially in the month or
51:49 two um just after that. So Steven Glass
51:51 was the was the first one I worked with.
51:53 Yeah.
51:54 >> You were obviously involved in in quite
51:55 a few appointments but I mean people
51:57 looking from the outside you don't just
52:00 pick up a you sack a manager and there's
52:02 no contingency plan yet. I mean it's not
52:04 as if you're starting from scratch but a
52:06 lot of these times there's a process
52:07 you've gone through and there's probably
52:09 a continuation to the next appointment
52:11 to the next appointment. Can you talk us
52:12 through sort of that sort of way your
52:15 time ab sort of thing where maybe I mean
52:17 for example I think Jimmy Ten was the
52:19 perfect example he was he obviously got
52:21 the job previously but he had been
52:24 interviewed I think when Barry got it.
52:25 So there's a sort of continuation policy
52:27 that it's not just a case of just
52:29 plucking names out of hat you know what
52:30 I mean once you've sacked a manager is
52:32 it? Yeah, and I don't doubt for one
52:35 second that um that the club's going
52:37 through a process right now and um you
52:40 know relying on Lutz and his network and
52:43 also the work that's been done over a
52:46 period of time trying to identify who
52:48 the right candidate um should be and um
52:52 in Jimmy's case what we done if I go
52:56 back I think maybe three years something
52:58 like that that is when we really tried
53:02 to um take a um a more data informed
53:06 approach in terms of what it was we were
53:08 we were trying to h to do. And by that I
53:11 I use the word data informed rather than
53:14 data because um applying data and trying
53:18 to um get it to tell you a story that's
53:20 only one part of the process whether
53:22 it's you engaging a player or whether
53:24 you're engaging a a manager or a or a
53:27 head coach. You still have to then do
53:30 all the other parts of the process that
53:31 you would expect to do. The due
53:33 diligence in the background, speaking to
53:35 people that have worked um with that
53:38 individual uh before um meeting the
53:41 candidates, get an impression of their
53:42 of their personality, you know, testing
53:45 them in terms of some of the line
53:47 questioning um what the plan is, how
53:49 much do they know about your
53:50 environment, about the player group,
53:52 etc. So, all of that still happens um as
53:55 well. Um but what we did um prior to
53:59 Jimmy's appointment was um the
54:02 benchmarking tool we actually developed
54:04 internally to help us try and ID players
54:06 that we might not have otherwise been uh
54:09 familiar with. Um we actually replicated
54:12 that process for head coaches and
54:14 managers. And um we accessed a database
54:18 I think it was around about 12,000
54:21 coaches worldwide. And what we were able
54:23 to do was take a really unique approach,
54:26 benchmark those coaches in terms of the
54:29 specific things that we as Aberdine at
54:32 the time would have been looking for um
54:35 in a manager and a head coach, both in
54:37 terms of their level of experience and
54:40 also in terms of their um performance um
54:43 at at different clubs. And when uh a
54:48 club says they want to engage
54:49 experience, well the question I was
54:51 asked is what you know what do you mean
54:53 by that? Because is it the level they've
54:55 coached at? Is it their age? Is it the
54:57 volume of games they've managed? Is it
55:00 the fact that they've managed in a
55:03 European competition? Um so all of these
55:05 things are added into the melting pot in
55:08 terms of arriving at what experience
55:10 might look like and um we were able to
55:14 benchmark um these this you know
55:18 extremely long list of coaches and come
55:20 up with a um essentially a list that we
55:23 wanted to focus on to find out and do um
55:27 a little bit more of the due diligence
55:29 that I that I mentioned before. And um I
55:32 think when we h did that process when we
55:34 had the vacancy when Barry was interim
55:37 manager then um we came up with a I
55:40 think the short list was effectively 10
55:43 or 12 candidates that eventually got
55:45 whittleled down to four or five at that
55:48 point in time. And Jimmy came through
55:51 all of that process and um we uh we did
55:56 um again go back to the integrity part.
55:59 We did things in the right way. So in
56:00 Jimmy's case, we spoke to his club. They
56:03 gave us permission to have a
56:04 conversation uh with uh with Jimmy. Um
56:08 we met him on video calls. We met him in
56:10 person. And um that was at the time, if
56:14 you remember, when Barry was doing an
56:16 unbelievable job in terms of uh the
56:19 outcomes we were getting on the pitch in
56:21 the first team. I think he'd won seven
56:22 or eight games um in a row. And at that
56:26 moment in time, the right thing to do
56:28 was um was to give Barry that
56:31 opportunity. He that was an opportunity
56:33 he'd um earned and um the system he'd
56:37 put in place behind the scenes from when
56:40 he'd been an under 18 um coach uh within
56:43 the the club from when he'd been a first
56:45 team coach in Derek McKinnus' backroom h
56:48 staff. we had introduced a um a whole
56:52 model in terms of how we wanted to play,
56:54 how we wanted to train um and the
56:56 specificities of that and Barry was a
56:58 big influence on what that looked like.
57:00 And I think in those early days you saw
57:03 um what Barry was was trying to do on
57:05 the on the pitch and you seen the that
57:07 and the level of performance he was
57:09 getting out of the the players in the
57:11 first team during the interim role. So,
57:13 um it was the it was the right decision
57:16 at the time to give Barry that um
57:18 opportunity and um obviously that meant
57:22 that we didn't engage Jimmy um at that
57:25 at that moment in time. So, when the
57:28 when the change then looks like it's on
57:30 the horizon,
57:31 you know, 12, 16, 18 months further down
57:35 the line, I forget the exact time scale.
57:38 Um then, like you said, we're not
57:40 starting from scratch. were able to pick
57:42 up a body of work um because uh I was
57:46 getting um updates on the data side on a
57:49 quarterly basis. So I was able to update
57:52 the model to see how um candidates had
57:55 progressed over over that period of time
57:57 and Jimmy um still continued to come out
58:00 as a really strong candidate in terms of
58:03 what he was achieving and what his
58:04 Ellburg team were achieving. So I don't
58:08 think there's many people at the time
58:09 that would have disagreed that um that
58:12 Jimmy wasn't a a good appointment at
58:14 that at that moment in time. And um
58:16 obviously he delivered the first
58:18 Scottish Cup um trophy for us um after
58:22 35 years. So um you know Jimmy will
58:26 always um be held in high regard I think
58:29 by um the Aberdine fan base by the
58:31 people he worked with and he made a big
58:33 impression of me and he made a big
58:35 impression on other people at the club
58:36 as well.
58:37 >> Yeah. ju just on the managers you work
58:39 with in terms of the role you had as
58:40 well I guess um I guess differ from
58:43 different coach to different coach where
58:44 someone maybe want to get more involved
58:46 in in the recruitment process or was
58:48 there maybe someone else who maybe just
58:50 kind of gave you a bit free reigns a
58:51 little bit or was it more of a team
58:52 effort across the board? No, it
58:54 absolutely was um was a team effort on
58:57 on every occasion and um I think
59:01 Aberdine certainly in my time there
59:03 whether this changes or not um I don't
59:05 know that's for others but um it was
59:08 always a club where the manager um still
59:11 had the final say on on players engaged
59:13 and certainly the manager could bring h
59:16 solutions um to the table and even when
59:19 you look at a club like Harts operating
59:21 at the level they are now really
59:23 successful on the pitch. It looks like
59:25 their recruitment approach is is bearing
59:28 uh fruit as well. Um I'm sure you know
59:32 Dan McKinnus as manager there will still
59:34 have views on um on players that they're
59:37 h that hearts are recruiting. So, um,
59:40 you know, I don't think, uh, part
59:42 particularly with the the culture that
59:44 exists, um, in Scotland and, um, and I,
59:48 you know, I think clubs still tend to
59:52 name their manager the manager, um,
59:54 rather than the head coach. I know
59:56 there's been a little move away from
59:59 that, but still um, whether you're the
60:01 manager or the head coach, you still
60:03 have a big influence in in terms of the
60:05 the direction things are moving
60:07 internally. um whether that's
60:09 recruitment, whether it's on the um on
60:11 the performance side and my role within
60:13 that was to make sure um that the
60:16 environment was um created there to um
60:20 to deliver positive outcomes for the for
60:23 the manager. So um whether players were
60:26 brought to the uh to that process
60:28 through the uh the model that I already
60:31 described through the scouting um
60:34 process or um through a recommendation
60:36 or um or an engagement the manager
60:39 wanted to make like sever um was for uh
60:42 for Jimmy then um it's about getting
60:46 good outcomes and um make sure that
60:49 you're at least going through a a
60:51 process that everyone's satisfied with
60:53 and arrive at those outcomes. So like I
60:56 said, I my role was to support the
60:59 manager was to create the environment
61:01 for him to be successful. Um and uh
61:05 that's how I saw my role and how I tried
61:07 to deliver it dayto-day.
61:10 >> Steven, we've taken up a lot of your
61:11 time, but before you go, what ask you
61:14 your Scottish Cup memories? I presume
61:16 that was amongst the highlights of your
61:18 your time.
61:20 >> It absolutely absolutely was. And I
61:22 suppose um it wasn't just the final, you
61:24 know, it was the the semiinal uh as
61:27 well. Um and you know, winning that game
61:30 in the fashion that we did with a with a
61:33 late goal from Dyba, that was that was
61:36 very satisfying. And uh obviously given
61:39 ourselves an opportunity um in the final
61:41 as well. And I think most people had
61:44 written us off. Um certainly in the week
61:46 before uh the cup final it
61:49 it at times it didn't feel like a cup
61:51 final week like there was a proper you
61:54 know buildup and I think um uh there
61:58 needed to be a fair bit of degree of
61:59 encouragement and and reminding uh
62:02 people that this was a massive occasion
62:04 you know to get to a cup final and give
62:06 yourself the opportunity in a in a
62:08 one-off match to um you know win such a
62:12 historic piece of um silverware. where
62:15 um so to get the obviously the numbers
62:18 of fans that turned up um filled half
62:21 the stadium they sung their hearts out
62:24 for the um I was going to say for the
62:27 whole 90 minutes but obviously it was a
62:29 lot longer a lot longer than that and um
62:32 even when you know the game hadn't been
62:35 going particularly um our way but um
62:38 with the changes that I think Jimmy made
62:40 during the game it gave us another
62:42 impetus um in the game and obviously um
62:45 you know Shaden and and Pap came on and
62:48 and were able to to make an impact to
62:50 get us the um help us get that
62:52 equalizing goal and then to have the the
62:57 um the strength, the character and the
63:00 mindset for those four guys that
63:03 eventually stepped up to take um the
63:06 penalties at the Celtic end with the
63:09 pressure and the weight of expectation
63:11 on their shoulders when for large parts
63:14 of the season had probably been, you
63:16 know, criticized for for not showing
63:19 that character. Um to step up when it
63:22 really really counted and deliver the
63:24 level and quality of penalties that they
63:28 uh that they did both in terms of the
63:30 the mindset part and the and delivering
63:32 the the technique was just incredible.
63:35 Um so to be able to to celebrate that um
63:39 immediately after the game, the night of
63:42 the game and then to see the parade in
63:44 the city the next day, those are
63:46 obviously scenes that live with me, my
63:48 family and no doubt everyone at the club
63:51 for a long long time. and on and on Pape
63:54 and Shaden in particular, they were two
63:55 players that maybe, you know, obviously
63:57 they came in a couple years before,
63:58 maybe took their time to get it going,
64:00 maybe took a bit of stick, but I guess
64:01 for the club, it just showed you the
64:02 vindication where they they came up at
64:04 the big moments and helped them win the
64:05 cup.
64:06 >> Yeah, absolutely. I think at times um
64:08 and by the way this goes internally and
64:11 I you know I can fall into this trap as
64:14 well that we judge players too early and
64:17 I've seen occasions where big players in
64:20 Scotland came to Aberdine and struggled
64:23 in their first six months but ended up
64:25 um going on and being really big players
64:28 um for Aberdine. Uh, and I I go back to
64:31 um to people like Barry Nicholson came
64:35 with a big reputation um first six
64:38 months maybe he would even say it didn't
64:41 go the way he'd wanted and then ended up
64:43 being a hugely influential player um you
64:46 know for Aberdine and getting a a move
64:48 to England off the off the back of that.
64:50 Kenny Mlan I think was similar um came
64:52 in um in a January window and um maybe
64:58 took you know four or five months to
65:00 settle and then we we saw the influence
65:03 that that a player like Kenny could
65:05 could have for Aberdine in the in the
65:06 two or three years um after that. So um
65:10 you know I think we'd written Shaden and
65:13 Pap off uh too early and I think we're
65:17 all vindicated from that you know
65:18 because of the the outcome that they
65:20 helped um everyone deliver in terms of
65:23 um bringing that cup back to back to
65:26 Aberdine. So all I would um say to that
65:28 is um there's obviously been you know a
65:32 number of changes in the squad both in
65:35 the summer past and um and the club have
65:38 made some signings in in January there
65:41 and uh I think we um we need to just
65:45 give one or two of these players a
65:46 little bit of time to um to get settled
65:50 in their environment both away from the
65:52 club and also um used to Scottish
65:54 football which we all
65:56 can be quite unique in terms of um you
65:59 know the aggression in the game, the
66:01 speed of the game, the volume of
66:02 turnovers in in possession. So, it's a
66:05 little bit different than maybe um some
66:07 of these players have been have been
66:09 used to, but um I'm sure there's uh
66:12 there's talent in that group now and I'm
66:14 sure there'll be players in there that
66:15 will cause people a few surprises in the
66:18 in the near future.
66:20 >> Stephen, at times, I mean, everyone
66:22 knows where your heart is. like the
66:23 chairman you know we know way you
66:26 support sort of thing I mean I mean you
66:29 through through through the years you
66:31 have taken stick in that does what
66:33 winning that Scottish cup sort of these
66:34 things through those moments does that
66:35 make it all worthwhile
66:38 >> yeah absolutely because um you see the
66:42 you see the happiness on everyone's face
66:44 I mean the the challenge when you're in
66:47 a role like the one I was in is you
66:49 actually don't get too long to enjoy it
66:51 so I remember when we um when Barry was
66:55 the uh was the manager, we beat St.
66:58 Mirin at home. We'd qualified, we'd
67:00 confirmed European group stage football
67:02 with a game to spare, I think it was.
67:05 And I think I enjoyed that for like
67:08 about two hours because you know then
67:11 that um you know, you're on this cycle
67:14 that we're not satisfied what's just
67:16 happened. we need to try and keep this h
67:19 keep this going and you know the volume
67:20 of work that's ahead of you whether it's
67:22 you know squad building whether it's the
67:25 changes we were making in the academy
67:27 whether it was um the development in the
67:30 women's and girls uh side of the club um
67:33 the performance side you know sport
67:35 science medical performance analysis
67:37 these were all things that I was um
67:39 overseeing um on a day-to-day uh basis
67:42 so quickly your focus returns to um to a
67:47 lot of that. So the the you know the
67:49 days um enjoying the the cup final so
67:53 the cup final day and the parade day
67:55 they were they were incredible but
67:57 obviously um quickly your mind um turns
68:00 to to to other things. And look I'm not
68:03 I am absolutely not looking for any sort
68:05 of sympathy. I I know that these are the
68:08 challenges that come with the the job
68:10 that um that I was in and the job that I
68:14 want to continue to do um going forward.
68:16 But you develop in the role over um over
68:20 time and work in an environment and like
68:23 I I have for such a long h period of
68:28 time, it does harden you to some of the
68:31 criticism that that you get um
68:33 externally. And um I always tried to uh
68:37 try to avoid that as much as I as much
68:39 as I could. But obviously when you're
68:41 surrounded by Aberdeene support and
68:44 whether it's family or or friends or um
68:48 or colleagues and they'll say, you know,
68:50 did you see what such and such was was
68:53 saying um online? And I I said, no, I I
68:56 didn't and I don't really want to know
68:58 about I've just got to focus on, you
69:00 know, what um what comes next. And no
69:03 doubt every person that does my role or
69:06 a similar role has to um deal with the
69:09 same sort of challenges. So um it just
69:12 comes as part of the territory in in my
69:14 view.
69:16 >> Stephen, on that note, we've taken up
69:18 enough of your time. We hope you're back
69:21 in a a similar role sooner rather than
69:23 later. I'm sure it'll be sooner. Thank
69:25 you very much for your time for a great
69:27 insight into your 25 years at Aberdine.
69:30 and wish you all the best for the
69:31 future.
69:31 >> Thanks a lot, Stephen. All the best.
69:33 >> Thank you very much, guys.